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Labour is talking about a wealth tax again. Jonathan Barrett & Lisa Marriott look at what its options are and what might work

Public Policy / opinion
Labour is talking about a wealth tax again. Jonathan Barrett & Lisa Marriott look at what its options are and what might work
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Photo by Jon Tyson on Unsplash.

By Jonathan Barrett & Lisa Marriott*

Labour Party leader Chris Hipkins recently revealed the party is looking once again at its tax policy, including a possible wealth tax or a “capital income tax” (CIT).

This comes barely a year after the party ruled out a wealth tax or capital gains tax if they won the 2023 election.

So what changed? Former Revenue Minister David Parker’s idea is to use the CIT to target big earners whose incomes are not effectively captured by the current tax system.

But how is this different from the other tax options on wealth and capital gains? And what are the options if some kind of wealth tax is introduced?

The basic wealth tax

You can think of wealth as assets – items of value. This could include land, shares, art works or other valuable collectables. A wealth tax typically has a low tax rate. Norway’s wealth tax, for example, has a rate of 1%.

Only four OECD countries currently have national wealth taxes.

But prominent economists, notably Thomas Piketty, argue wealth taxes are necessary and practicable. Piketty also promotes progressive inheritance taxes – these can also be seen as taxes on wealth. Even one of New Zealand’s wealthiest men, Bruce Plested, billionaire co-founder of Mainfreight, has supported the idea of a wealth tax.

Often a wealth tax has some exclusions, such as the family home. Or it might be a value exclusion, say an allowance of NZ$2 million in assets before you have to pay the tax. Usually any debt against the asset reduces the asset value.

To illustrate, let’s take the Green Party policy from the last election. This was a 2.5% wealth tax on assets. An individual could have $2 million in assets before the wealth tax would need to be paid.

So if you had an asset portfolio of investment property and shares valued at $3 million you would pay 2.5% tax on $1 million (i.e. the $3 million portfolio less the exempt value of $2 million). This comes to $25,000. Note that this is paid every year – not just once.

Some compliance costs are obvious here – valuing assets for a start, particularly those that may not be actively traded (some art works or unlisted shares, for example).

Cash flow is also an issue. People may be asset-rich but cash-poor. A tax policy that forces people to sell their assets to pay tax is likely to be politically unpalatable.

Taxing capital and land

A capital gains tax (CGT) also taxes wealth. However, a CGT is a tax on the gain in value of an asset – usually when it is sold. Therefore, a CGT is usually paid once (when the asset is sold), unlike an annual wealth tax.

We don’t have a comprehensive CGT in Aotearoa, but income tax legislation can result in some capital gains being taxed.

And what about a land tax? A land tax is a tax only on land. Land taxes have some advantages – they are hard to avoid or evade as you can’t move or hide land, for example. And land usually has an existing valuation, which makes compliance and administration more straightforward.

These types of taxes (wealth, CGT or land) are flexible – items can be included or excluded as required. For example, productive land, Māori land or the family home can be excluded.

Importantly, they have the potential to make a meaningful contribution to tax revenue. The amount collected will depend on the tax settings (e.g. what is included or excluded – and what the rate is).

These taxes aren’t perfect. They create distortions in behaviour, such as people over-investing in their family home if that is excluded from the tax.

Income tax, CGT and inheritance taxes usually only apply when money or property changes hands. Wealth and land taxes do not rely on a transaction but relate to property that exists and can be valued.

Where capital income tax is different

Labour’s CIT aims to calculate income (and tax) based on a person’s capital holdings.

While the details are not yet clear, it’s about taxing what people “ought” to receive as income, based on the assets they and their families beneficially own. We see something similar in the foreign investment fund rules which presumes a 5% return.

A CIT may make sense to economists but most people are likely to expect to be taxed on something they receive or own, rather than on something they are expected to receive.

Fair taxation

It’s basically about the fairness principle of ability to pay. A “buck is a buck” whether that dollar comes from wages, bank account interest, or is held in wealth.

The principle also underpins Labour’s CIT. Support for wealth taxes comes from the wealthy, the public and experts. The 2010 Tax Working Group recommended a low-rate land tax. The majority of the 2019 Tax Working Group recommended a CGT on a broad range of assets.

New Zealand has yet to adopt any such measures. Even the United Kingdom, where Conservative governments have held power for 32 years since 1979, has a more progressive income tax system than New Zealand, including a comprehensive CGT and an inheritance tax with a standard rate of 40%.

If taxes on wealth are an obvious policy choice for other OECD counties, why we don’t have them? And why has there been so little serious debate about moving away from our reliance on personal income tax and GST?

New Zealand is not exceptional and should learn from the best of OECD tax arrangements. Progressive policy makers need to focus on the basics of ability to pay – “a buck is a buck”. Well-meaning as it may be, a CIT is unlikely to communicate the fundamentals of tax fairness to the voting public.The Conversation


*Jonathan Barrett, Associate Professor in Commercial Law and Taxation, Te Herenga Waka — Victoria University of Wellington and Lisa Marriott, Professor of Taxation, Te Herenga Waka — Victoria University of Wellington.

This article is republished from The Conversation under a Creative Commons license. Read the original article.

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197 Comments

We don't have one because enough people are convinced our system is fair and rewards effort. This is of course, less and less true over time, but no less powerful as an idea. Until we challenge some of these narratives, we will never get change. Interestingly, the younger generation sadly seem to share a lot of similar views to their parents. The only proper rich kid I ever met who was remotely progressive was only that way because he had been born in a wheelchair, and then decided to join the student association for disabled students at Otago and it completely changed his entire worldview. He said, it never even occured to me how lucky I was to have parents that built me a lift, and a gaming room to spend time in, etc. He had lived in such a privileged bubble, but didn't know until he met other disabled kids just how much wealth almost ameliorates the impact totally.

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Our politicians are largely morally bankrupt too. This government in particular is so comfortable with lying, that I wonder whether it's actually corruption in some instances. 

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"We don't have one because enough people are convinced our system is fair and rewards effort."

This is a point I've been ramming home by saying, "Kiwis aren't that bright". Sure. The wrong way to do it as the exact people I'm taking aim at take umbrage at this (but it is succinct and to the point and I'm a poor typist).

Until we wake up to the fact "we don't know what we don't know" we'll continue to muddle along buying property from each other and thinking we're getting rich. We're not. Slowly but surely we're going backwards and our woeful tax system is a large part of the problem.

Taxing wealth is completely normal all over the world, and they've been doing it for generations ... except in NZ and other banana republics.

 

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buying property from each other and thinking we're getting rich. We're not

Making logical arguments like that will get you labelled 'DGM" in this great nation of thinkers and doers.

Expecting a fairer tax system that rewards hard work and innovation over speculation makes you a communist in NZ.

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Kill the "top end of town" kill the bottom end x100.

 

Meanwhile the real crooks are taking the money and paying what!?

Google, Meta, ....

 

How many Google employees in NZ v how many advertising/ journalist kiwis have been sacked?

 

 

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"It’s basically about the fairness principle of ability to pay. "

Exactly what is fair & principled about taxing on the basis of "ability to pay"?

 

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My post below answers your idiotic question.

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You can't get rich on a desert island. Paying tax is an acknowledgement of the social contract between everyone in a society. I personally hate to see my taxes wasted but it's better than the alternative.

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A CGT is needed but it needs to be done right to be accepted by a majority (including non-lefties like me). It must be seen to be fair (as fair as a tax can be) and cannot be changed by the next government's whims (such as happened in the 1980s after Roger Douglas's tax rate of 33% and GST of 10% pact with the electorate was reneged on by the next Labour Govt (Lange/Caygill) who immediately increased the top tax rate to 39% and GST to 12.5% followed by the Key govt's increase in GST to 15%). Govts/politicians cannot be trusted. To win over the electorate, a CGT must:

  • Be fair - tax only 50% of realised gains - this eliminates bleating about costs incurred during the ownership period such as rates, maintenance, insurance, interest, inflation.
  • Tax at the marginal tax rate - but allow spread forward/back maybe two years each way to dampen major hits that push people into higher tax brackets.
  • Be set in stone - cross party agreement requiring 75% of parliament to make any future changes.
  • Exclude the family home (on the basis we want people to accumulate some wealth), as long as the proceeds go back into a replacement personal home (you can only have one primary residence).
  • Fix the current Super savings system in NZ which severely overtaxes citizens trying to save for their retirement such that residential property is a much better option for accumulating retirement wealth. If we want to introduce CGT "because that's what other countries do" then horses for courses we must also adopt "other countries" superior super savings systems such as Canada RRSP's etc and USA 401k's etc. Most countries have an EET (look it up) system whereas NZ is an outlier with a draconian TTE system that crushes any hope of a decent retirement fund for citizens. 

CGT is a complex area for the uninformed but it can be done on a sensible basis (which excludes the avaricious Greens and Labour nonsense policies).

The Canadian system seems to me to work well (I have lived there as an accountant). See link for a brief snapshot re the family home if you are interested...https://www.nbc.ca/personal/advice/home/principal-residence-exemption.h…

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We do already have a wealth tax on housing to some extent. It’s called Rates. The calculation is based on the value not on the services it uses. 
 

id say they better hurry up with an inheritance tax before all the wealthy die and it gets spread to the next generation, myself included.

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WRONG.  What you're meant to do is throw a few emotive comments out there about robbing a dead man's estate so you won't have to pay tax on the inheritance you worked extremely hard for.

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Ah yes, sorry I forgot the government is so much more deserving of someone's estate by default, instead of their immediate family.

If the argument is you haven't worked for an inheritance, then by definition the government hasn't done anything extra either. They already taxed that money when it was earned the first time, and then they get another bite at the cherry... for what, exactly? 

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For some investors, perhaps to account for the generous subsidies and transfers they receive thanks to the incredibly generous support for 'tenants' - without which their investment would make no financial sense.

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OK, so if you have a property investor issue, tax property investors. 

That's not a good enough reason to change the default presumption of property ownership to the state for every New Zealander who dies and leaves an estate. 

Plenty of Kiwis never touched property investment, I'm not sure why they or their families should be expected to pick up the tab because governments took the easy way out over decades. 

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My preference would be a blanket rule to avoid people getting around it. If anything, the majority of people would be better off even if the family was taxed. Because those who own everything, are so few compared to the majority.

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My preference is that we actually directly target things that are causing negative outcomes, rather than regarding hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders as collateral damage for poor government policy. 

Concentrating the actual cost of running the country on a tiny group of Kiwis with extremely mobile and desirable skillsets (the uber rich won't pay it and someone will justify a way for people currently paying no tax to pay even less) seems like it might not be in our society's long term interest. And yet this is what passes for 'fairness'. Eventually the country will simply run out of the 'someone elses' that everyone else seems to think should be footing the bill. 

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My preference is that we actually directly target things that are causing negative outcomes

Care to throw up a few examples?

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How about our tax system?

The OECD and pretty much every other thinktank (not funded by extremists), while all being very polite in saying so, are quite frank in saying our tax system is pretty much 'f#cked up'.

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The high cost of land and resultant high cost of housing. 

Free it up by taxing it so A) the price comes down and B) more supply becomes available as land bankers decide to do something with it rather than fund NZ via their new land taxes.

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You mean A: the price goes up once the additional cost of the tax is factored in and B supply dries up as less inventory on the market- look no further than australia with their taxes and stamp duties constraining the market. They appear to have even more of a housing crisis in their major cities than NZ does. This will seriously drive up rents too as the pool of available rentals severly shrinks. Can you find an example of a country whos house prices reduced after CGT was introduced? Me neither....

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You mean

No, I didn't mean that because it is untrue.  A) No one pays more for a piece of land that has a tax on it compared to one that doesn't.  That's why leasehold sections are often sold for less than the building value.  B)  The same amount of land is available, if land holders wish to pay additional taxation, then that is their choice, but the rest of us will be better off since we benefit from that spending or tax cuts elsewhere.  Australia, like NZ, doesn't have a decent land tax.  You won't see me advocate for stamp duties or CGT's like Australia has - indeed I've pointed out the folly of them on this website so save that argument for someone that has please.  Furthermore, Australia has been running stupidly high inwards immigration policy which is the main cause of the current rental shortage, no different to NZ.  The rentals didn't shrink, the population grew.

Can you find an example of a country whos house prices reduced after CGT was introduced? Me neither....

I wouldn't expect to, that's why I don't advocate for a CGT to be introduced.  Why do you think I am advocating for a CGT ? 

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"Why do you think I am advocating for a CGT ? "

Based on your statement:

'Free it up by taxing it"

What name did you intend on gving the land tax? Call it land tax, capital gains tax, stamp duty, whatever. If theres additional money paid to the government when a buy/ sell transaction takes place on property/ land, people will naturally try and avoid this by transacting less.

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I said the high cost of land, then I said to tax it, so a land tax is what I stated although I guess I could have made that clearer. 

A land tax is quite different from a CGT and stamp duty.  For example, there is no transaction required for the land tax to be collected as you suggest.

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"My preference would be a blanket rule to avoid people getting around it."

Agreed. The USA, until recently had AMT. Other countries have / had similar taxes.

(It should have worked better, but, you now, rich people have a massive hand in what happens at a political level.)

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Whatever the government does the wealthy will get around it, they can afford lawyers, accountants, moving their funds overseas to tax havens. The people who will suffer are the people in the middle that worked saved all their lives to give their children an advantage.

And what for so that the government can squander their money on ideological bullshit like half a million dollar bike racks that no-one uses, and speed bumps while leaving essential infrastructure like water to go to ruin for at least 30 years. Sure I could have selection bias here so please show me examples of the government spending money wisely, by that I mean getting value for money not just a useful cause. I know the government provides may useful services whether it provides them efficiently is another matter.

Don't get me wrong we need to do something about extreme disparity between rich and poor but we also need reward people who save and try and not immediately say you are rich give us your money. If we don't the fundamental driver of our economy will cease to function.

You see that, where people hurl insults at old people for being "rich" because they are technically a millionaire because they own their own home, but if we consider having a secure place to live after working your whole life rich then we have lost the plot.

I also see this as a possible problem in the future when what is considered wealthy now will not be adjusted in the future, like tax brackets, where if you earn only twice the minimum wage you are in the 33% tax bracket even though you could be supporting a family of 10 with that wage. The government will always need more money the more you give it the more it will spend.

 

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Inheritance tax is peak communism, you need therapy if you support it.

Why is the State deserving of assets that have been paid for out of taxed earnings? And before you start prattling on about "unearned income" from property, if the State had effectivey managed inflation and the delivery of affordable housing, we wouldn't have anything like the large capital gains we see. These capital gains are more a symptom of poor Government than smart investing by the deceased.

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I don't think it's communism. Many capitalist democracies have inheritance taxes. I don't think we will ever see one, or a CGT. We don't trust or understand each other anymore. The whole idea of society is basically redundant. It is a scrabbling mud heap of warm bodies trying to get theirs while trying not to think about how pointless it all is. Can be a bit sad to think about.

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A CGT is quite different from IT, I support the former on investment property. If I were to inherit an investment property as part of an estate and I sold it, then CGT would be appropriate. If I kept it, then no tax.

Globally we are at record highs for tax/GDP. We need to shrink Govts and get them out of our lives for all but essential services.

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Wealth/inheritance taxes are blatant envy theft communism & we know where that ends up; I'd expect nothing else from VUW these days, things were a lot different when I graduated from there ~3 decades ago.

Wealth Tax Impact: Details & Analysis | Tax Foundation 

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'envy theft communism'. As squawks go, that's quite cute.

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Aren't Inheritance Taxes paid for by the beneficiary, rather than the estate of the dead person? So an inheritance is currently untaxed income?

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If you give your child $500 as a birthday present, do you think the State should tax that? Should the State tax the beneficaries of wedding gifts (well they already have via GST), parents helping children with house deposits. Maybe an FBT on taking kids on holiday?

Communism never sleeps.

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No, we don't want that, and it won't happen. Period. There just seem to be a lot of envious people that like to drone on here about how best to put their hand in other peoples pockets. But, the fact is they don't have the power to do so, and never will, so it is just a case of stupid ideas being submitted and a few of us trying to explain the shortcomings and obvious poor outcomes.

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"If you give your child $500 as a birthday present, do you think the State should tax that?'
No, but if you give your child $500,000, yes.
Inheritances and gifts should be taxed, but there will always be a 'reasonable' threshold.

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There never seems to be much discussion about that in these kind of articles.

I can only assume that is intentional. 

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Cop out. If you can't cook in the kitchen, leave!

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Threshold I'd agree with, as the purpose of said tax is intended to prevent repeated generational wealth building and building until we wind up with a few owning all the assets and holding the majority of the wealth, and the rest having far far less. To an extent the western world has progressed to this anyway despite any wealth taxes or inheritance taxes. Wealth begets wealth, and it is always an eventuality in a capitalistic system that wealth will accumulate to the point that interventions are needed to rebalance this. Companies buy out other companies, dominate sectors then branch into other sectors and continue swallowing them until only a few large conglomerates control the market in the area in question. This is the same for wealth in families, inheritance is passed on, and used by the following generation to accumulate greater wealth. 

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I don't think that is the purpose of tax at all. It is to pay for infrastructure and services to benefit all. If tax was supposed to even out things, then some of these massive powerful companies wouldn't exist and they would get broken up. Have to also remember that some of the richest people end up making the decisions.

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Do you really think the Government is going to set the threshold at $0? 

You're welcome to be vehemently against the idea, that's fine, but try to put forward some well reasoned points instead of just throwing in hyperbolic emotive examples in an attempt to bolster your shaky position.  

Maybe you do have a point though, let's simplify it by making the tax due only when it's a deceased estate.....  That way we're not taxing kids birthday parties.  

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If IT isn't a shaky position, what is?

It can be easily avoided with even rudimentary estate planning. I think the UK is the only country I know with it and they are looking at abandoning it, well the Tories were. 

Tax investment property and be done with it.

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Tories are always looking at abolishing wealth taxes. That's what makes them Tories.

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I wonder if there could be a happy middle ground, where we acknowledge that the state has no business in a small gift to a child, but does take an interest in someone receiving a multi-million dollar portfolio they haven't worked for? 

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No.

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"If you give your child $500 as a birthday present, do you think the State should tax that?'
No, but if you give your child $500,000, yes.
Inheritances and gifts should be taxed, but there will always be a 'reasonable' threshold.

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It is indeed.

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I paid for my house out of taxed earnings, why do I pay rates? People buy overseas shares with taxed earnings, why do they pay FIF tax? I buy my groceries out of taxed earnings, why am I charged GST?

Inheritance tax is an effective way to stave off the inexorable progress towards inequality without resorting to revolution. 

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Imagine if instead of taxing you so much on your earnings, they just applied that tax when you died?  Deferred tax if you could call it that, applied to any surplus "unspent" income over your life.  

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Te Kooti would object. ;-)

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Sounds great to me, tax me as much as you like after I'm dead. 

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Te Kooti: "Inheritance tax is peak communism, you need therapy if you support it."

No. You're being a foolish reactionary again. See my post below for why. 

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You sound unhinged.

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Coming from a wealth worshipping radical like yourself that is indeed a complement. Thank you.

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Compliment.

I'm nothing of the sort, I just cannot abide the concept of the State having any entitlement to the assets of a deceased individual. 

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Inheritance tax has been around since Augustus.

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An economics scholar! 

Well said. Well said indeed.

It was easy in Augustus's days, in theory. There were realizable values that could be taxed. In reality, the system was hardly 'fair'.

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The argument for inheritance taxes is that, over time, the transfer of inherited wealth becomes a significant issue. In countries like the UK or India, people are often divided into classes based on the circumstances of their birth. When wealth accumulates to a certain point, it becomes self-sustaining, regardless of the merit behind it, which in turn reduces social mobility and cohesion.

It's understandable to want to save for your children, but at what point does this become problematic? Are we heading towards a feudal system where a select few own everything and rent it out to the lower classes, whose parents couldn't pass down wealth and property? This shift doesn't happen overnight, but we're starting to see a trend where one's lot in life is determined more by parental wealth than by individual merit.

When hard work no longer correlates with higher incomes, the disconnect between effort and reward makes society more fragile as a whole which is bad for everybody.

 

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The feudalism thing would hold more weight if you weren't proposing the State have a divine first right to your family's property simply because they had the audacity to cark.

And I would be probably OK with this debate if we were having it in good faith. But you won't see discussions about rollover relief, or the thresholds at which Federal Inheritance Taxes kick on, or other things that tend to target these more at the $5m+ end of town. 

No. Every dollar is going to be fair game. People who spend everything they get and coast through life with someone else footing the bill for their housing, education and health will once again not have to chip in. The super-rich will simply leave (and even if they don't, they're still rich). But ordinary people who might inherit a classic car or a family home will be taken to the cleaners. Because we've decided the State has a presumptive right to everything you own, and if you pay the piper, you can have your family's stuff back.

It's just feudalism with the State occupying all the rungs above you. I'm not seeing how that's better. 

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"If you give your child $500 as a birthday present, do you think the State should tax that?'
No, but if you give your child $500,000, yes.
Inheritances and gifts should be taxed, but there will always be a 'reasonable' threshold.

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Then let's here some of these thinkpieces talking about them for once. We have a Brightline clipping the ticket at marginal income tax rates, not a flatter percentage with no thresholds at all. So based on evidence, I am not going to be giving much benefit of the doubt here. 

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Why wouldn't we have a threshold? You are the one here making a bunch of assumptions about what it would be, and it seems like assuming the absolute worst case scenario.

I don't think anybody reasonable is arguing for a 100% inheritance tax. Some kind of progressive inheritance tax that doesn't massively punish ordinary families but helps diversify revenue would be welcome compared to our current system, which is far too heavily reliant on incomes.

People who spend everything they get and coast through life with someone else footing the bill for their housing, education and health will once again not have to chip in.

How many people do you actually think this is? I believe it's far fewer than you think. I don't see an enormous group of people just drifting through life and taking advantage of the system. Sure, there are some, but it's hardly a systemic issue that will bring the whole country down.

Yes, there are certainly people putting more in than they get out, but who those people are can change over time. For example, students might take more than they contribute initially, but ideally, they'll enter the workforce and reverse that. Retirees are the largest group taking more than they put in, but they probably contributed a lot throughout their lives (not enough to pay for super but that's a whole other argument). Parents might also take in more than they put in, but their kids will eventually become future taxpayers and we want everyone to have access to a good education which is going to cost money. Or do you want it so everyone is contributing the same amount all the time. Would that be a better system than what we have now with a progressive tax system?

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Revenue for what ? We already pay too much tax. The issue is waste.

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That's a different argument, though. We could reduce revenue while still diversifying the tax base to be less reliant on incomes. How the money is spent is an entirely separate issue from where the money comes from in the first place.

To clarify, I am more focusing on the source of tax revenue rather than its allocation. By diversifying the tax base, we can create a more balanced system that doesn't disproportionately burden income earners as the current system does. This could involve implementing taxes on wealth, property, or consumption (e.g higher taxes on certain goods that contribute to the trade deficit in addition to GST), which would spread the tax burden more evenly across different economic activities and assets.

The key point is that the structure of the tax system can be adjusted to be fairer and more efficient without necessarily increasing the overall tax revenue. This approach would help ensure that everyone contributes, regardless of their income source, and reduce the heavy reliance on income taxes.

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It would be more acceptable if broadening the tax base meant generating more revenue from some sources, i.e. CGT but that was offset by a decrease in income taxes and taxes from other sources, so the tax take was the same, but the sources different. But, what is being talked about is taking the same amount from the current sources, and then inventing new taxes which are punitive and aimed at a specific group. That is unacceptable when we already pay far too much for far too little.

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growth isn't cheap.

closing loopholes isn't punitive.

we pay "far too much for far too little" in part, because such loopholes encourage and aid the hoarding of wealth away from public expenditure.

 

You'll get nice things if you put some of the greed aside

A rising tide floats all boats

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The rising tide in tax revenues over the last six years lifted a lot of boats in Wellington while basic services fell to pieces and people in other parts of the country got less and less value. Not to mention the increase in taxes in real terms by refusing to index. 

So perhaps it's time we question the wisdom of this because reality seems to play out very differently. Proverbs might be great for fridge magnets but they are a poor basis for tax policy. 

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But, what is being talked about is taking the same amount from the current sources, and then inventing new taxes which are punitive and aimed at a specific group

I'd hardly call the deceased a specific group.

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I see inheritance tax as a peaceful, respectful way to stop wealthy families becoming exponentially wealthy (to the detriment of others) over successive generations. 

The part about taxing my nan is just fairness. 

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You do realise that wealthy people don't pay inheritance tax? Do you have no concept of estate planning, tax-free domiciles, trusts etc.

In the UK, farms are exempt - so the wealthy buy a lot of farms. You should really focus on slimming the State down and making it more efficient rather than looting the recently deceased.

 

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So are companies. I saw an add a while back offering services to put houses into a company structure, because of the tax advantages (I think CGT). There are loopholes everywhere, on shore and off shore. I agree. There is about 30B in waste in government right now. The tax take increased by 80% during Labours term (with nothing to show for it except worse results). Allowing for inflation, that does not tie back to the extra amount taken. So, there is huge scope to claw this back. So, you are right, slimming down the public service and other areas of government that are not needed or are performing badly should be the priority to resolve any funding issues.

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Yes, the answer is always to raise taxes rather than increase productivity.

What the coalition are doing in cutting back on bloated departments has some merit. I appreciate it is a difficult time for those impacted, but the sooner it is done, the sooner these people are rehired into value creating industry. The transition has to happen.

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I think our main issue is even if we raise productivity, we are still facing a looming demographic crisis. The productivity gains may just end up being eaten up by an increasing population of retirees requiring more state resources and care, so we end up having to bring in more revenue just to stand still and not regress.

With some form of capital tax (in whichever form it take,  hopefully not a wealth tax...) we can expand the tax base away from workers and have some of those who are collecting superannuation, who are independently wealthy help to contribute towards government expenditures rather than relying on a shrinking pool of working age people to pay the country's bills. Ideally this would come with a reduction in income tax at the same time.

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The tax take increased by 80% during Labours term

Do you have a source for this?

From looking it up quickly it was $70.4 billion in 2016 and was $107 billion in 2023. That doesn't seem like 80%.

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Figures I have are 69 and 112, so 62% to be exact. I thought it was more. Still way to much.

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Keep in mind the person who has died has already paid tax on that profit. So it’s a tax on already taxed income. Greedy &@:$:)’s

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Say what? So you and Hugh are the same person?

by HughJorgan | 12th Sep 24, 2:45pm

We do already have a wealth tax on housing to some extent. It’s called Rates.

And then you wrote: 

by  GV 27  |  12th Sep 24, 3:01pm 1726110115

Ah yes, sorry I forgot the government is ...

So you and Hugh are the same person? Good to know. (that'll screw up A.I.)

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I agree Huge. Rates is probably a good enough wealth tax on its own, but it needs to be increased (maybe double). And a related issue, we have council's that don't have enough money and need to borrow craploads more and load the next gen with more debt. We could kill two birds with one stone. 

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JJ: "I agree Huge. Rates is probably a good enough wealth tax on its own."

Wow. Just Wow. Staggering stuff.

See my post below if you believe 'Rates' is a good enough wealth tax.

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Then we pay GSZt on the rates which is a tax on a tax.

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And that is why rates are so flawed and they can't increase them enough to pay for services that are needed. If they rated based on people using those services, and it was taxed as a general tax, it would be far more fair and they could make far more money.  But it isn't helped by the massive waste and how inefficient local councils often are. 

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every time I look at those cycle lanes and road bumps in wellington, I just wonder why we pay taxes for those stupid stuff. 

why we keep stressing gathering taxes but never on how they are spent? 

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Yes, all local and central govt spending should go through cost benefit assessment 

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I'm more concerned with how much we're paying so that investors can pay $1 million for a house, and have rental payments topped up by the taxpayer. I'd be curious as to how much we receive in tax from rental income per year and how much subsidies we provide to "tenants" (I disagree with this, the entire benefit accrues to the landlord, without it, the tenant would be no worse or better off)... I'm not convinced it's anything remotely approaching value for money. Let the market decide the rent. I can guarantee, people who can pay what landlords are expecting would never move to some of these properties.

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'Let the market decide the rent'? The market can settle on a fair rent (no more than a third of household income) only if there enough homes in the right places, and those homes are fit for habitation. Many rentals in New Zealand ought to be demolished.

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Agreed government doesn’t exactly spend our current tax take wisely so anyone who thinks we should give them more needs their head read. 

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The ability for kids to be able to walk around their neighbourhood without being killed is stupid? 

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how many of those killed cases are we talking about?

reducing speed from 50 to 30 is a 40% capacity drop, I don't suppose that requires significant scrutiny even taken into consideration of safety concerns? 

Plus, rescue trucks like fire fighters, ambulances are forced to slowdown too, I don't suppose those few minutes means something to a fire or patient? 

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You obviously don’t have a young kid. Almost everyone I know’s biggest fear is them getting out onto the road. It’s wrecking their childhood.  I’ll kick a ball out onto the street and you go blindly running after it like a kid would and let’s see how well you do. The only reason more aren’t dying is because parents have to wrap them in cotton wool. 
We are talking residential streets here, it should be a tiny percentage of most trips. There is no way people should be doing 50 on my residential street with kids around. 

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Sounds like you need to build a big fence and lock the kids inside.

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Hahahahah. It's more likely a kid would fall off on a speed bump and get run over by a passing car than it would be for them to be hit in a residential area regardless of the 30 or 50k speed limit. Outside of schools, 30k fine. Everywhere else, 50k. Most people ignore the 30k speed limit anyway, and it;s not enforced as the police realise how much of a hairbrained idea it was anyway. Around there there is a section (quite a long one) that used to be 100k, and is now 80k. Road deaths have increased dramatically since the speed limit was reduced, as a result of people that would normally drive 80 now dropping to 60, making drivers want to overtake more often and causing accidents. This is an example of a stupid idea resulting in a poor and predictable outcome. Lucky it's being cancelled....

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Average reply Joe. 

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They put a blanket 30 kmph restriction in our suburb - no-one drives 30 not even cyclists or buses - except around the school at drop off and pick up for obvious reasons. However, it has brought the speed ceiling down  on the main roads 10 kmph - the people who don't care and perhaps make up a large portion of the navel gazing statistics still hoon around at whatever they like.

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??? Very few countries have wealth taxes. 
 

CGT + gift + inheritance taxes are far more common.

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If taxes on wealth are an obvious policy choice for other OECD counties, why don’t we have them?

Clickbait heading

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Some countries do have CGT, that is true. But they are sensible about it. The taxes are applied at 10-15% sometimes lower, and the have grandfathering and depreciation and expenses considered. Here the Greens and Labour talk about a draconian CGT applied at the marginal tax rate, so those with high earnings, pay 40%, so this it why it will never happen, in that form anyway. Wealth taxes are a different matter and can be managed and avoided easily.

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Yes, a great example of how the idea is simply to tax as many people as possible and gather as much revenue as they can. The arguments about 'other countries' stops at justifying new taxes, and never seems to come into the implementation discussion. 

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Tax is simply a function of an economy with enough cashflow for you to derive your income from. There is no money creation without tax and interest deletion. Why we so foolishly believe that zero tax and 0% interest will release us to valhalla, I'll never understand. But one thing I do understand is that the tax that I pay funds absolutely nothing, I do not create legal tender in my back pocket and neither does anybody else.

So yes, if we want to run an efficient economy, it really means taxing every dollar fairly, and disincentivising destructive behavior such as creating $60b to buy a bunch of houses we already own then renting them back to ourselves.

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If we have an efficient economy, shouldn't we be trying to make sure everyone who can work does? 

If we have an efficient economy, shouldn't we be charging market rents on state housing?

If we have an efficient economy, shouldn't we stop giving money to people for reaching a certain age? 

See how much need you have for rewriting the entire tax system once we get the other bits of the economy working efficiently and then we can design a tax system to support it. But I think we both know this is really about collecting as much revenue as possible and making the State as big as possible, and any idea of efficiency here is about as laughable as when the hard right use to justify slashing spending to the point it cripples services. 

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How do you define an "an efficient economy?

Sorry, as someone who studies such metrics, I genuinely would like to hear your definition.

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I'm not the one who suggest such a thing. Ask the bloke I'm replying to. 

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In my view an efficient economy is one where trade is local and brisk, where we incentivise productivity in our workforce and correctly utilize the workers, services, tools and produce we have. In an ideal world (imo), money enters the economy for direct productive purpose, passes as many hands locally before exiting via either tax, interest payments or offshore.

The inefficient economy produces money tax free and puts it predominantly directly in the hands of vendors with the hope they spend some of it at the local cafe, or booking a massage before buying a bunch of crap offshore, or booking a long cruise.

Keen to understand a better view though.

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Any view on such a subject is awash with subjectivity. And the subject is massive. Your's is IMO a pretty good view. I have just one word - obviously subjective - "fairness".

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Lol economics can't define an "efficient" economy.

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 "But I think we both know this is really about collecting as much revenue as possible and making the State as big as possible, and any idea of efficiency here is about as laughable as when the hard right use to justify slashing spending to the point it cripples services."

It may or may not be the motivation of the author, however the fact remains we have a social contract that is meant to ensure that the necessities of life are available to all....and we charge our governors with that responsibility...some decades ago they abdicated that responsibility to the markets in many areas, and it aint working.

That demands an examination.

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Your whole comment is about spending, and though yea I agree that the amount we spend on benefits and subsidies such as superannuation and accommodation supplement is outrageous, this is a conversation about tax. If we want to incentivise people working, and not expecting tax free capital gains for free, then that is a conversation about tax. Taxing a "business" whose assets "double in size every 10 years" but employs nobody. (edit)

Also, why would we ever need to charge market rents on state housing? What is the purpose of that? Only reduces the need for revenue elsewhere, such as tax free capital gains. The government creates work 60-70 years ago, money enters the economy, a house is created, a small maintenance cost for that same house enters the economy ongoing. How much rent does the tenant need to pay for 70-100 years to make that a zero sum transaction? The govt does not drive profits. This is truly how rediculous our housing market is.

If we appropriately taxed capital gains, and reduced PAYE, then surely without the promised lands of unearned tax free gains on ones own home, perhaps people would save and the pension would be reduced to only those who absolutely need it. A future I am already preparing for as I can't see the current setup lasting another ~30 years.

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The CGT would have been a good thing, even if prices didn't go down. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-20/stamp-duty-adds-9-379-billion-to…

 

I lived in Sydney and the public services were night and day better than NZ. Because the CGT pours a lot of money into these services, something we miss out on here stupidly.

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Stamp duties on all houses over 2mil for a start

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Why?

And why $2 million?

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Nah, stamp duties unfairly hit those that have to move for work or family reasons vs those that don't.

I don't want someone driving from one side of a city to another just because they don't want to pay the stamp duty due for moving (there's already enough of a disincentive to shift as it is with real estate fees and moving costs).

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Other places also have carve-outs and thresholds and provisions to make these taxes more palatable to ordinary people, if they are even affected at all, which never seems to be part of the converstion here. It really just seems to be about extracting the absolute maximum from as many people as possible. 

I'll also note that that there was never a sensible answer around what would happen to trading businesses operating in industries with single-digit margins. Paying an additional 2% at a time when many businesses are struggling is going to have predictble consequences, both for employment and for inflation. 

As for 'fair' - there's that word again. What does fair mean? Does it mean everyone chipping in, or does it mean one small group of people paying more and more over time? Fairness, I would contend, is very conveniently in the eye of the beholder when it comes to this debate. 

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I think you'll find that political parties that propose wealth taxes, capital gains taxes, land taxes, inheritance and gift taxes, have 'fairness' very much in mind ... if you can be bothered reading the fine print.
Tax proposals have to be tailored to get over the hurdle of a general election, so wealth taxes will be designed to be voted in by a majority to tax the wealthy minority. 

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Yes, I generally do read the fine print. This is why I'm asking these questions. I'm not merely content with university common room debate sloganeering as a basis for tax policy, I want to know how it's going to work. 

And we already have a tax system that foists the majority of tax obligations on a minority in the name of 'fairness'; forgive me if I don't place much faith in the general electorate to make sensible and informed decisions about tax policy. Their primary concern seems to be that someone else will pay it, and they are happy as long as it is not them. I can understand it, but that doesn't make a shitty tax policy a good one. Convincing turkeys to vote for Xmas won't suddenly make it ANZAC Day.  

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Yes however the issue we currently have in terms of whatever is needed to rebalance wealth inequality, is the public motive and engagement to vote for such change. For this we would need the youth to both understand and engage in these concepts and the potential long term implications of tings like CGT or whatever is proposed and the opportunity costs for them down the line also. They would also be voting up against the largest generation in history who are very politically engaged and have high voter turnout.

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Typical Leftist commentary--the government always needs more in tax.  A CGT fair enough.  A wealth tax is simply a doubling up of the income tax, so that if you have saved, and been careful with your money, you pay a wealth tax to support those who spent all their money.

New York and California are learning the hard way, thanks to their wealth taxes.  Tens of thousands of people have left who paid a great deal in income tax, and now they do not have the revenue to support their welfare payments.

A small business in NZ pays between 47-49% of its revenue in tax.  Then there is the wage bill and other expenses.  Add on a yearly wealth tax and it is not worthwhile having a small business, our biggest employer.

But none of this would occur to the academics who wrote the article.  They have never had to earn a living by mortgaging their home to start a small business. 

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Inheritance is an interesting one.  Especially at the upper end of the socioeconomic spectrum where its not just about the money at a certain point. It becomes about power and influence in society.

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Isn't a wealth tax just a more convenient way to tax the gains on your wealth, because that is often very easy to hide. So they assume you should have made 5% or whatever, and then tax that. 

I assume it would require the current gains taxes (e.g. RWT) to be removed. 

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I'd quite like to see a deemed return tax on all second + properties. Dramatically simplifies investors tax returns (property value x 0.05 x tax rate = tax due), reduces the dangerous incentive to leverage properties, also applies to holiday homes which discourages the overuse of a scarce resource. 

Similar to the FiF regime already used for most overseas shares. 

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See that's a reasonably direct approach to a problem. I like how you didn't drag every New Zealander who died into your net in the process. People could learn from that. 

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I like that you don't give a discount for debt.

I don't like that there is a huge loophole available for those that could afford to put one house in the name of the partner/daughter/son before they have to pay anything.  Best to include the family home, although maybe what you suggest is more palatable to the voters. 

How long until we have people 'hiring' out their name at property value x 0.01 to property investors?  A universal land tax wouldn't require as much policing.

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It's going to get harder to start small businesses in this country when asset prices are increasing and incomes are stagnating. 

This increasing inequality means fewer people have spare money. Shrinking market means less business opportunity. 

Or we can just embrace it and choose to sell luxury goods to the rich or own rentals.

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You are 100% right, Azimuth.

This comment, "...we can just embrace it and choose to sell luxury goods to the rich or own rentals" is quite prescient.

The 1930s Depression was predicated by exactly this phenomenon. And when the mega-rich stopped spending? As the say, the rest is history.

(I hate the word, but some are waking up. The more, the better. NZ used to do stuff based on 'fairness'. Let's go back to 'those days'.)

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People used to work and be proud of it, instead of complain and bludge of others. Lets go back to 'those days'

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There has always been 'bludgers' as you call them.

Before we had a social safety net they went by the names of poacher, thieves, highwaymen, robbers, pick-pockets, blackmailers, etc. etc. 

Doubt me? We have law books awash defining such crimes. Seldom used much nowadays. 

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There were highwaymen in the 70s and 80s ?. I just learned something. Did they still have horses ?

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What part of "before we had a social safety net..." did you not understand?

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OK. I missed the social safety net part I was laughing so much that you started to bring highwaymen in to the conversation. Please forgive me.

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Would 'gangs' be a better term for highwaymen? 

For you, I expect it would.

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People used to be able to have an average job, one earner in the household and afford to buy a house and have a family. This isn't the case today. The argument that hard work alone gets you this, while still possible, is amplitudes harder to achieve. People also used to have set career pathways where they could start in a job and work their way up. Again this is still possible but i is far more financially advantageous to change jobs every 2-3 years as the increase in salary is greater.

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Have you done the math on what a mortgage free rental returns. Say you’re on 180K+ salary. Which isn’t much in 2024 if you’re the sole earner for a family, with a mortgage and rates + + +

 

 

 

 

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"A small business in NZ pays between 47-49% of its revenue in tax. "

They do? Seriously?

You, ElmoBoy12, like AverageJoe, as I've said before, both have serious accountancy needs!

Get help !!!!

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Accounting and law are two of my majors. I use them both as part of my role, so they are quite useful. If I had problem with accountancy, that would be quite a big issue. You seem to insist on this quite a lot, but I suspect it is you that has the issue with numbers. 

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Hard to take that seriously.

If you have, as you claim, "accounting and law are two of my majors", may I enquire as to whom you had to sit the exams? And how much you paid them?

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Always a pain when you come up against people who know what they're talking about. 

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As it is always a pain when people who clearly haven't a clue support people talking b.s.

GV 27, my point is crystal clear.

If the poster is being honest (they aren't), they can prove their assertions by using facts (they aren't).

Your support of them simply puts you in the same category. And we can draw our own conclusions ....

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You could, and I could draw mine. The difference between us is that mine will be well-informed. 

I hope this has been most enlightening for you. 

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It sure is interesting, that Mr Chris has unilaterally decided that certain people not being truthful, and it must be so, and anyone that disagrees with him (or her, or them or they) is obviously wrong. Says a lot.

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"Mr Chris" hasn't decided anything.

As always, you'll be judged by your own words, as am I.

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You seem to be forgetful as well as having an issue with numbers....

 

"As it is always a pain when people who clearly haven't a clue support people talking b.s.

GV 27, my point is crystal clear.

If the poster is being honest (they aren't), they can prove their assertions by using facts (they aren't)."

 

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It has not been not enlightening for anyone.

Why? Because you've provided nothing more ill-informed 'reckons'.

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Interesting. You have decided I am ill-informed simply because I disagree with you.

I'm at least open to the idea that others may have more extensive and relevant experience with me on matters, especially when I know next to nothing about them or who they are.

We are not the same :) 

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Well, I sat them myself of course. All A/A+ average in the final year. Never did the CA thing, as I found accounting and law a bit too easy (and boring), so I pursued something else. I sat my exams at a New Zealand University, not a low level Polytech (where it appears to be much easier). My sister got a scholarship at Oxford University, I won't tell you which subjects. I messed around a bit and drank too much, so I missed out. Boo. I know quite a lot about accounting though. That is for sure. Paid for, by myself, thanks to a student loan, which of course was paid back as quickly as possible.

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Care to explain how a small business pays between 47-49% of its revenue on tax?

 

Sounds like bollocks to me.  Or you need a better understanding of tax deductable expenses.

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There's a big difference between a wealth tax and a capital gains tax but their conveniently amalgamated by the writers.  The former, very few OECD countries have, and for good reason.    

 

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Concur.

Given the summary, and the writer's undoubted expertise, I wonder why they structured this article as they have. 

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Yip completely agree. Taxing when a transaction is made is one thing. But taxing all wealth just for being,  is another. Would create huge side effects.

id like people to think about this. If a wealth tax was to be truly fair, then all wealth needs to be taxed. No exceptions.

 That means everyone needs to pay a tax on all their assets. There car, clothes , shoes, toothbrush.

i think however that the people in favour of this don’t actually want a fair wealth tax. They just want one where other people pay but not them. 

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I'm personally ok (in fact in favour) of a CGT on realised gains. I'd include realising via borrowing against the equity/gains as well.

E.g. according to some probably very biased Opes Partners calculator, I could borrow enough against the paper gains in my property (purchased in 2019) for deposits on 2x new townhouse investment properties.

In that instance, I'm using capital gains on effectively a "good as cash" basis to get myself more assets and have an advantage over some poor schmuck who wants to buy the same property, as they have to pay the deposit with cash that has been taxed when they earned it as income.

Will never be ok with the idea of tax on unrealised gains. You'd have an easier time convincing me the earth is flat. 

Just because some algorithm, or some government paper pusher (govt being "incentivised" to inflate asset values as highly as possible to raise more revenue) reckons my property is worth $X, doesn't mean jack $hit until I actually sell it or borrow against it at a set value ... because at that point the market has also agreed on the value. 

I'm looking out my window at a house for sale across the road. QV reckon it's worth about $850k, the vendor is asking $830k and it's had no bites. So it simply isn't worth what either think; it's worth what buyer and seller agree on.

Also any CGT-type tax needs to be used not just to raise revenue but provide an opportunity to reduce income tax on modest income brackets, so that working is a 'better deal'.

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The way you describe it, is how a capital tax is done in The Netherlands. On realised gains and for landlords/property investors only. Owner/occupiers are excluded by the way the tax has been set up in The Netherlands. I still have properties in The Netherlands and remortgaged those to buy New Zealand properties. 

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Probably a strong corolation between those working paying the majority of tax and voting. Aka they don't want it. Working tax payers are already are struggling to carry carry an increasingly heavier older and lazier population.  Many are just voting with their tax payment to Aussie. 

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Ah. Wealth taxes. Everyone's an expert.

Let me give a quick and compressed history lesson from the U.K. ....

Before the industrial revolution, pretty much all tax was related to how much land people had. Then the industrial revolution changed the landscape and very little land was required to get very, very rich.

The landed gentry called foul.

They pointed out that industrialists weren't contributing enough to government confers but they were reaping the rewards.

The good & wise industrialists (sadly few in number) set up housing schemes, schools, hospitals, pension schemes, etc. to ensure they had a pool of happy, educated, healthy workers, living in stable communities (The U.K is awash with such villages.) But the bad industrialists said this was someone else's problem.

Eventually, there was almost a revolt. Nay, a revolution by workers. (This is the U.K. remember.)

The government decided they'd take control of housing schemes, schools, hospitals, pension schemes, etc. and punish the bad industrialists by forcing them to pay all sorts of taxes. Their reason was as simple as it was obvious: How dare they, the bad industrialists, derive their wealth from what the good industrialists, the Church and government had provided. Of course they were right. Fair enough.

So ... enter inheritance taxes and a raft of other wealth taxes. (And when I say raft - you have no idea. Ever heard of pottery tax? Flax tax?)

So when you're a rich prick living off the backs of workers educated from the taxes we all pay - or someone inheriting wealth derived from the backs of workers educated from the taxes we all pay - think again about what you think you are entitled too.

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So when you're a rich prick living off the backs of workers educated from the taxes we all pay

Isn't this the case with someone who is a landlord, and is getting income from people working? If they are paying off the mortgage, you would still be benefiting from capital gains over that period which are likely not going to get taxed? Isn't this what the Kiwi dream is, where you have a small portfolio of homes to rent  out and it is seen as a sign of success when you have achieved this?

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You'd be right.

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OK. Now explain to me why the State is any more 'entitled' to my property if I die than my kids are.

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It's actually quite simple. You (quite rightly) want to pass your assets to your kids. That's what most people want to do. the advantage of doing that, is that they do not have the financial pressure of having to save for a house, service the mortgage and whatever like you most probably did. This means they can get married younger, have kids earlier and give them a proper life, with some of the stresses of starting from nothing being gone. It's called leaving a legacy and it is a good thing to do. The envious, that did not a plan like this have one option, and one option only, and that is to tear you down and make your kids start with nothing, or, as close to nothing as they can make it. They think like this because they did not think beforehand, and they blame you for it. That is pretty much how it is. So, they moan and jump up and down and say it's not fair and hope that the state listen to them and start to steal your stuff.

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averagejoe: "It's actually quite simple."

It is indeed. The state, via our taxes, enabled you to accumulate wealth through the services we paid for, so its time to pay us, via the state, back.

It is indeed that simple.

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to accumulate wealth through the services we paid for

Could you elaborate here Chris, you lost me. How is it the state allows someone to accumulate wealth when the individual makes their own choices financially to get said wealth? I get the state sets laws and regulations etc etc but I'd need some context here to hold validity as I can't follow your logic on this one. 

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My parents were early 20's when I was born.  So assume they both only live until they're 65, I'll be 45 when I see this inheritance. 

  • I won't have the financial pressure of having to save for a house (*checks notes, I did have to save for a house),
  • I can get married younger (*checks notes, I got married without an inheritance)
  • I can have kids earlier (*checks notes, have kid and still no inheritance).  
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Not everyone's circumstances are the same. I never said they were. I simply pointed out the advantages of leaving an inheritance and the reasons for doing so. The ideas here seem to state to me that inheritances are not fair because not everyone gets one and so we should all start at the beginning. That is communist thinking.

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The issue is that people who want to reach the same level but don't have the advantage of an inheritance will have to work twice as hard, they need to build up their own savings, which is significantly harder because they have to pay taxes on their income. Meanwhile, those who inherit money can skip all the hard work and get a leg up without actually contributing to the country.

It's entirely feasible for someone with a large enough inheritance to not work at all and just cruise through life doing basically nothing. This person will pay zero tax apart from GST. Compare this to someone who starts with nothing, who will pay significantly more tax and could work far harder, yet they will end up supporting that first person through their taxes.

Life isn't fair, and we will never make everyone equal, but taxation certainly could be fairer. The state is essentially making it harder for that second person to succeed, while the first person, who benefits from the taxes of the second person is basically been given a hand out by the state by getting to use all the services paid for by the taxes of the second person.

The tax system should be structured to encourage hard work, actually doing something with yourself and bettering your own position in life. Not rewarding those who live off hard work that has been and passed. "Working" has far more value to society than "worked".  Your own work ethic and ability should have far more bearing on your success in life than the circumstances of your birth. Our tax system basically encourages the opposite of this, and punishes those who are actually actively working.

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It's entirely feasible for someone with a large enough inheritance to not work at all and just cruise through life doing basically nothing.

I know someone in this boat, early 30's and more money tan they'll ever be able to spend, their folks have properties all over the world with exuberant features, cars etc, and they haven't even received their inheritance. As great as it sounds, they have no motivation to do a lot and tend to flounder about. Personally I'd get bored and need to invest my time doing something productive, start a business, find ways to contribute my time towards lesser fortunate countries elsewhere etc.

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But those advantages you list off do not generally (except in rare circumstances) coincide with when an inheritance would get paid out.  

Yes, when one skips a generation or parents die young for sure.  But the average life expectancy is 82, so how is the average person who receives an inheritance benefiting by being able to start a family, buy a house etc if they're in their 40s to 50s when they get this windfall?  

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We are talking about gift taxes here as well.

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The envious, that did not a plan like this have one option

Those envious children, they should of just planned ahead and had wealthy parents, idiots.

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Because the state, i.e. everyone paying taxes, (and why we accept paying taxes), provided a huge chunk of what you believe you are 'entitled' to.

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The average Joe in NZ doesn't seem to understand that Capital Gains Tax and Wealth Taxes are two totally different things and should never be lumped together. Capital gains tax is fair and was supposed to come in in NZ when major tax changes occurred back when GST came in, but it never did. Most countries seem to have a CGT and NZ has one too for certain transactions. But very few have wealth tax, and that results in wealth leaving the country. 

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Most countries have 'inheritance taxes' and in many, often disguised, forms.

Are they not also a wealth tax?

Methinks the wealthy are doing their very best to pollute all discussion about taxes to ensure wealth becomes untouchable.

Needless to say ... If they succeed, our descent to true banana republic status will ensue. ;-)

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Income tax law was written by said wealthy capitalists. It was always intended to tax the workers not the owners.

I do have an accounting degree, CA qualified and many years as a tax and accounting professional/"expert". 

I'm probably neuro divergent too... From my own research into history, observing the last 40 odd years in real-time, and attempting to view past any internal bias and vested interest, I've come to the conclusion it's all fundamentally flawed.

Government, economics, capitalism, the tax and monetary system are no longer fit for purpose. Problem is they're all just systems that we've inherited/created. We're not capable of addressing the underlying causes and effect.

For all the progress and "wealth" we've made, the iniquities and imbalances have only appeared to have compounded. All the tinkering around the edges hasn't seemed to solve anything.

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I have +1'd this. I have to agree. I consider discussions around 'wealth taxes' and the predictable dirge about estate taxes to be yet another step in the direction - "we can fix the world simply by taxing anything we don't already tax" is kind of missing how we got into this mess and why it won't magically get us out of it.

We're very poorly served by the quality of the debate around taxes (there are a handful of decent replies in this entire comment stream at best) and many simply revert to tired tropes (I can't pretend I'm not guilty of it either) and we are more the poorer for it.

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NZ needs to increase its productivity, and make more money overseas, and that will then create more tax for the government. But that seems to be missing from any plans. 

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We used to have both estate duty and gift tax. The former abolished in 1993 by a National government and the latter by the Key government.

Obviously the wealthy don't like it.

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Gift tax was abolished because it was costing far more to enforce than it was getting in by way of income.

 

We're talking a gap of millions of dollars.  Here's a link: Gift duty abolished as of 1 October | RNZ News

 

Often, in my experience, when you gift money to someone they return it to the economy pretty quickly (i.e. squander it).  The best option would be for them to "return" it in NZ rather than overseas.

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Gift tax is an essential accompaniment to inheritance tax. A previous National government abolished death duties in 1993, which made getting rid of gift tax inevitable.
New Zealand must reintroduce them both to tax recipients' bounty like any other income.

https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0013/latest/whole.html

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It's not on anyone's radar. Maybe on Labours (and these articles), but they are gone for a decade, and they most certainly will not campaign in this. They would never get elected on it. Hopefully they will learn by then.

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Inheritance taxes and gift taxes are electable if they clearly affect only a minority of voters and equally clearly benefit the majority.

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The minority would avoid it though. So, you get elected, and implement something the minority avoids....and then what ?

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That’s well and true but the media do a great job of advocating for the “haves” and undermining anything that seeks to even the playing field when it comes to entrenched privilege. 

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.

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Title should read "Labour is talking about the greed tax again".

Sorry, who is Chris Hipkins ?

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Sorry, who is Firstclass?

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Nothing like a piece on tax to bring out the rabid right wingers with their claims of ‘communism’ etc etc

😂

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Honestly, it’s like a flash back to the Cold War fanaticism of old. Surely they can’t really see this country as communist. It’s the opposite if anything.

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I’m sure they wouldn’t appreciate being called fascists or nazis for having ‘right of centre’ views

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It's quite common. Often racist is added to the list as well. Equally irrelevant, but, whatever.

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Labour can bugger off.

First, wealth taxes have never worked and never will, unless there's some sort of one-world government (god help us). The wealthy will simply move their wealth elsewhere and the country will be impoverished as a result.

Second, other countries with wealth taxes target those with extremely high net worth - tens of millions, not $2 million or so, as the Greentards propose.

Third, it's inherently unreasonable to tax people on unrealised gains. Capital gains, fine. But wealth or CIT taxes, no f-ing way.

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Sorry, stopped reading at ...

"First, wealth taxes have never worked and never will ... "

Most countries have them, even the USA. Are you saying they're not working? Given NZ Inc ain't working maybe we should have them.

"...other countries with wealth taxes target those with extremely high net worth - tens of millions, not $2 million or so..."

Not so. But you're the expert ... apparently. (I paid a wealth tax on a $5k capital gain in the U.K.)

"it's inherently unreasonable to tax people on unrealised gains."

This is not an argument against any form of wealth tax. It's an argument for a good design.

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Bryce Edwards: Why New Zealand can't have a fairer tax system
https://democracyproject.substack.com/p/why-new-zealand-cant-have-a-fairer

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An extremely good read. Pretty much spot on.

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It's worth remembering what taxes are for. They create unemployment. What now?

Yes, some colonial types turn up in a country with natural resources. The natives are living their native lives - working together to stay alive and enjoy their community life. Well, that won't do, say the colonial types. We need these damn natives to build railways, chop down trees, grow coffee or sugar (delete depending on your geographic example).

So, the new colonial types introduce taxes - a tax per mud hut maybe, or taxes on these darn nuisance dogs that are causing all the trouble. Now, how do natives earn the coin required to pay taxes? They go and work for someone that gives them the coins. What happens if they don't pay taxes? Let me introduce you to the colonial army. Soon enough you have african natives picking sugar cane and growing coffee, and Maori in the far north of NZ building railway lines. It was the same back in England, Spain etc of course although the peasants took on the role of the natives.

Taxes are how the Govt ensure that a given proportion of the country's real resources are working on the things that Govt wants to happen. That can be crazy stuff like expensive new roads or good stuff like quality healthcare and education. We elect Govts to make choices on how much they do and what they prioritise.

This all works great while Govt are spending money into the economy and taxing it back out again. The trouble is that if an economy gets out of balance, the money that Govt spends into the economy gets channeled too quickly into the pockets of the handful of people that own all of the rent-generating assets (new worlds, rentals, companies with monopolies etc). If the tax system is not progressive enough to prevent money pooling with the rich and powerful, the economy gets more and more out of balance. Before you know it, you have working people paying all the taxes while the rentiers with all the rent-generating assets live the high life - and, critically, use their wealth to buy Govt favours that keep things working for them. That's a recipe for disaster. Sound familiar?

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"It's worth remembering what taxes are for. They create unemployment."

Odd way of looking at it. I'd argue they smooth and redirect to things we need but capitalists won't pay for.

But the last paragraph is bang on the button.

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Much to agree with there...but I would suggest that the primary purpose of tax is to provide (local) demand for the currency...and all else you describe flows from there. 

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Can you explain what "demand for the currency" means? Does it mean demand as a medium for exchange? Or as a store of wealth? Or something else? Without that clarification, I don't understand what you're saying.

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How do you get people to use 'your' currency?....create an unavoidable bill that can only be paid in 'your' currency...that bill is tax.

You can trade, barter, work for free, provide for yourself, use another currency in your dealings but if you have to pay tax then somehow or another you need to obtain the acceptable currency on pain of penalty....and who issues that currency? The Central Bank (or its proxies).

The currency is not necessarily monetary though in modern economies it is....in the distant past it may have been labour, or food but to be a member of the community the elites have always controlled the masses through such obligations...except when they lose control....they looking increasingly like they are losing control about now.

 

 

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That last paragraph is spot on mate. 

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Very interesting have you seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oVpt_I9iQQ&t=4844s 

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I think we are focused on the wrong thing, trying to wring more money from already over taxed people cannot be a good thing, how about we start with better government spending then look at tax?

Also we already have a land tax and an unrealised capital gains tax, rates are 1)a percentage of the value of house and land, 2) that value is the current value and therefore includes unrealised capital gains. Just because we don't call it that doesn't change what it is.

 

Edit: Gramma

 

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A CGT is needed but it needs to be done right to be accepted by a majority (including non-lefties like me). It must be seen to be fair (as fair as a tax can be) and cannot be changed by the next government's whims (such as happened in the 1980s after Roger Douglas's tax rate of 33% and GST of 10% pact with the electorate was reneged on by the next Labour Govt (Lange/Caygill) who immediately increased the top tax rate to 39% and GST to 12.5% followed by the Key govt's increase in GST to 15%). Govts/politicians cannot be trusted. To win over the electorate, a CGT must:

  • Be fair - tax only 50% of realised gains - this eliminates bleating about costs incurred during the ownership period such as rates, maintenance, insurance, interest, inflation.
  • Tax at the marginal tax rate - but allow spread forward/back maybe two years each way to dampen major hits that push people into higher tax brackets.
  • Be set in stone - cross party agreement requiring 75% of parliament to make any future changes.
  • Exclude the family home (on the basis we want people to accumulate some wealth), as long as the proceeds go back into a replacement personal home (you can only have one primary residence).
  • Fix the current Super savings system in NZ which severely overtaxes citizens trying to save for their retirement such that residential property is a much better option for accumulating retirement wealth. If we want to introduce CGT "because that's what other countries do" then horses for courses we must also adopt "other countries" superior super savings systems such as Canada RRSP's etc and USA 401k's etc. Most countries have an EET (look it up) system whereas NZ is an outlier with a draconian TTE system that crushes any hope of a decent retirement fund for citizens. 

CGT is a complex area for the uninformed but it can be done on a sensible basis (which excludes the avaricious Greens and Labour nonsense policies).

The Canadian system seems to me to work well (I have lived there as an accountant). See link for a brief snapshot re the family home if you are interested...https://www.nbc.ca/personal/advice/home/principal-residence-exemption.h…

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I'm getting a bit sick of these advocacy pieces. also, this buck is a buck rhetoric from academic elites. The idea that you are somehow better off because your house or whatever property goes up in value is flawed. it is no better. it is the same old house. all you are seeing is inflation. what is really happening is currency devaluation. if you sold that house sure you would have more dollars but you would have to use them all to buy something similar next door. you are no better off.

A so-called capital gains tax is just political expedient. I however have some sympathy for the wealth tax idea from the perspective that it drives and rewards productive use of capital. But as pointed out here compliance would be a nightmare. Maybe insurance valuations could be used.

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There's no point in taking risks and making money only be taxed a second time. 

You can see here what happens when you gouge the wealthy. They leave, and take their business with them.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/surge-in-emigration-inquir…

 

 

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