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Murray Grimwood says the future will be so different we need to go back to basics, and with degrowth inevitable it'd be better done voluntarily

Public Policy / opinion
Murray Grimwood says the future will be so different we need to go back to basics, and with degrowth inevitable it'd be better done voluntarily
future
Photo by Drew Beamer on Unsplash.

By Murray Grimwood*

‘Science is a narrow tool: powerful and tenacious like a pit bull, but having no intrinsic wisdom or context. It concerns itself with what we can do, not what we should do.’ Professor Tom Murphy; astrophysicist.

“Education is for improving the lives of others and for leaving your community and world better than you found it.” —Marian Wright Edelman; children’s advocate.

‘But there are still vast sections of society – academia being one – that don’t yet integrate the magnitude and urgency of our systemic predicament.’ Nate Hagens; researcher/educator.

Peter Gluckman is currently leading two interrelated processes; one questioning the future of science; the other, education. Given that we are already late in addressing the ‘wicked problems’ facing humanity (correctly identified in the ‘science’ terms-of-reference) this has the potential to bode well. But given the unquestioned goal of ‘economic growth’, both threads also have the potential to be a misdirected waste of whatever time remains. Ideally, this exercise should once-over-lightly identify the bigger issues facing New Zealand/the world, and report back recommending an even wider-scoped brief. Urgently.

 

Not a new idea

Some time ago, I wrote a piece suggesting the need for such a review:

‘We need to teach an expertise-meshing discipline (Systems Analysis being the academic name for such, although I prefer Buckminster Fuller’s ‘Generalism’ term). Ideally, this would permeate the education system and spread to voter-awareness – assuming we have that much feed-back lag-time up our sleeves! We need Cabinet to be – or to have access to – such a discipline. Perhaps enlarge the role of Chief Science Adviser to case all things, indeed a report from the CSA into the need to think in Systems, would be a good start.’

Approaching the Limits to Growth

Ironically, these teams would not have needed assembling, nor my prior comment made, if the future was going to resemble the past. The driver is the same one which spawned the Productivity Commission; the yet-to-be learned lesson from its failure (to correctly identify what underwrites production) applies.

So different will the future be, I suggest, that they need to go right back to basics; question everything; assume nothing.

In simple terms, one species has run an unprecedented experiment; exponential consumption-growth within a bounded system (planet Earth). It takes neither advanced education nor particular expertise, to understand that such an approach was always going to be temporary. It requires equally non-advanced qualifications to understand that a series of bets laid on the expectation of permanent consumption-growth, would be increasingly unbacked as the physical underwrite fell away. Again, it takes no special expertise to understand that exponentially ‘up’ and exponentially ‘down’ graphs cross acutely; that the change we face will therefore be rapid.

Replacement values

In light of the above, it also takes no great intellectual capacity to realise that a growth-accommodating accounting-scheme (a series of ever-bigger bets on ever-more consumption) was always going to be displaced – whether proactively or retroactively - by a reduction-accommodating one. Thus, henceforth, the former is an invalid justification-basis for future science/education emphases… Let us re-phase that: Money, as currently issued/formatted, is no longer a valid measurement tool for scientific or educational goals (in fact, it never was).

That is where the financialized approach to research (both university and institutional) has fallen short; some form of physically-indexed and time-referenced valuation – as opposed to keystroke-issued, fiat-levered debt - needs to be the goal/base-line/yardstick from here on. (That goes for society-at-large too; the assertion that an unlimited population can be ‘raised out of poverty’ is incorrect, no matter how much believed, or how often articulated).

What science needs to address

In simple terms, everything we consume is either mined or grown. The mining - and subsequent processing/consumption/discarding - is done using energy which was solar in origin but is also mined (fossil fuels being historical solar energy).

Resource and energy throughputs, then, are the overarching topics. Subsequent facets include depletion, degradation, dissipation, efficiencies and entropy. Few scientists, fewer journalists and even fewer politicians, are addressing these consequential issues in weighted relativity. Economists – with singular global exceptions - are yet to turn up for class.

Where/how we have gone wrong

Science and education have grown of-and-with first-world consumption-growth. Like most activities they were parasitic upon energy and resource-flows; both accepted remuneration – consumption-proxy, therefore resource/energy proxy – in measures negotiated with wider society. Temporarily it seemed to work; teachers/lecturers/professors/researchers got ‘paid’. Nobody asked whether the seventh generation hence would thank us; nobody asked how long those flows would last; nobody noted the insidious displacement – by debt - of true wealth- underwrite; nobody questioned its message.

Declining quality; lowering EROEI; surplus energy reducing

As the best-quality energy and resources got extracted/consumed/ejected, a sequential trajectory of ‘next-best’ became inevitable; an ever-worse-source scenario aggravated by rising demand – via both outright population and per-head consumption – and compounding reductions (for instance: ever-more ‘overburden’ needing removed per ton of retrieved ore; said removal using energy of ever-reducing EROEI). The proportion of surplus energy – energy available over-and-above essentials like food – inevitably reduced; first per-head, then overall.

Science and education – along with health and infrastructure-maintenance – have been squeezed by that surplus-energy reduction, plus entropy. Increasingly, what society could once ‘afford’; it no longer can. Science has mostly reacted by ‘following the money’; allowing short-term corporate avarice and/or personal ease, to dictate what is – or, more importantly, isn’t - studied.

Tertiary education is arguably worse, and should hang its head in shame. Not only has it ‘followed the money’, it has chosen to ignore already-available-internally knowledge. Consequently, politics has had no choice – even if it wished - but to peddle ignorance, to pander to a voting populace increasingly adrift from the truth of their ever-worsening predicament.

Inevitably – and entirely predictably – student loans, institutional and other debts have become increasingly hard to justify, as business models developed in the late-stage growth years become increasingly invalid. This, coupled with the growth-narrative’s increasing need to avoid inconvenient facts – by disestablishing positions; starving funding; muzzling communication – has led society ever-closer to the cliff, while wearing an ever-bigger blindfold. That a collection of past-system winners would pull on all available strings to continue the past, was predictable; that the majority of educators and a goodly proportion of researchers would choose to fall into line, placing personal ease above moral obligation, was not. J’accuse.

To those responding indignantly to the previous sentence: warning about climate change and/or driving an EV, may salve personal consciences but do NOT - to any meaningful degree - address the poly crisis facing humanity.

We are seeing this less-bang-for-buck/increasing debt trend manifesting in multiple ways; Local authorities permanently increasing charges beyond inflation; infrastructure failing even so; lengthening waiting-lists; increasing conflicts - at all levels - over ‘what’s left’.

Moral obligations of science, and education

Warnings about the muzzling/commandeering of science have been sounded over the years; locally Shaun Hendy’s Silencing Science (BWB) and further afield Chris Turner’s The War on Science (Greystone). The de-funding, de-placing and active muzzling of Mike Joy, is a classic study in this regard. But the moral implications are clear; if a scientist or senior educator is made aware of multiple self-induced existential threats to humanity – let alone to the rest of the biosphere – they have a moral duty to holler it from the mountain-tops. And to challenge the no-existential-threat-here brigade, including academics in other siloes if need be. With protest, if necessary; better still, with storming of the ivory towers, demanding change on behalf of those yet to come.

In this matter, I completely disagree those who believe that the role of science is to lay information in front of politicians but to refrain from moral campaigning; I suggest that it strongly resembles virtue-signalling. One can understand the need to remain dispassionate when doing research, but given the implications of the above? That approach could only be valid if commercial/corporate/short-term interests stayed an equal distance from decision-making. Which they do not, by some patently-obvious orders of magnitude (think: politician/lobbyist and politician/trough-feeder revolving doors; think: election funding). Silent backroom research cannot be the sole role of science, vis-à-vis a society needing to alter its trajectory if it is to survive. Precise communication is an essential component.

A similar thought occurred when the Deputy Vice-Chancellor of Otago University, Professor Richard Blaikie, opined to me that ‘all we have to do is plant a trillion trees’. (A simple fellow like me, then asks how many trees there are, and were? The respective answers are ‘about three trillion’; and ‘nearly twice that’. Does the Deputy Vice-Chancellor really believe that replacing one-third of what we have already felled, can redress our burning of mined – and therefore additional - fossil carbon? Has he asked when/where/how his trillion trees will be grown/planted/left forever?

Yet Professor Blaikie – instead of warning that commercialization is a core component of the poly crisis facing humanity, ‘oversees all the research and commercialisation activities of the University’.

Society has the right to challenge such (trillion-tree/partying-on implied) claims; science – academia included - has the obligation to ascertain/purvey the truth of them.

Henceforth, all governments will need to obfuscate/ignore/silence, if they continue to peddle ‘growth’. The degree may alter with a change of government; the trend will not. Trite cliché sound-bytes will replace fact; ‘backbone of the economy’; ‘sustainable growth’; ‘responsible pipelines’ (the latter classic courtesy of Canadian PM Justin Trudeau). These are regurgitated by the media, largely unchallenged. Scientists, particularly scientific educators, need to challenge these, and be free to do so. En passant, journalism – itself declining - needs to raise its bar too.

Quo Vadis?

The future is brutally simple to anticipate; all overshot species collapse, and we have – by transcending time via the levering of fossil energy – levered our species’ overshoot more than any ever has (or, almost certainly, ever could). Growing out of overshoot is NOT an option – indeed it defies logic - degrowing is therefore inevitable and better done voluntarily, that involuntarily. That means a re-formatting of most growth-facilitating constructs (interest; profit; resource extraction; maintenance deferral/curtailment; waste-dumping) and triage of most of our fossil-dependent infrastructure. We are out of lead-time to fully replace that collection, and out of surplus energy with which to do it. Triage will therefore increase exponentially; growth, Jim, but not as we knew it…

The future role of education

In a de-growing reality, future bets will no longer be discountable; thus living via student, tenant and government debt (living now, at the expense of the future) will not be an option. Put differently; in a de-growing reality, teaching can be done, but for a fee which does not impinge the future. Hallowed halls will therefore likely become a thing of the past; the future is unlikely to deliver the surplus energy to maintain them.

Information retention – mindlessly assumed to be via the internet, forever – is likely to revert to less energy-intensive, less technology-reliant formats. Written word, hard-copy; in other words, books. Which means that the throwing-out of those, at all library levels – was short-sighted ignorance.

Truth-based education will be of even greater importance than it already is. Social media and algorithms have further skewed already-falsely-based societal narratives, to the point where few understand the poly crisis facing humankind, or their part in it. Tertiary education, by and large, has succumbed rather than challenged. Whatever format it morphs into, will have to do a great deal better (hopefully driven/made easier by the young demanding truths).

The future role of science

There is a time to research; a time to warn; a time to adapt. Further researching climate, for instance, will not change our trajectory; we know enough now, and have steadfastly chosen inertia. The same applies to the other concurrent issues.

Simple logic tells us that we will continue consumption-growth until one-or-more limits impinge; a sad epitaph for supposed sapience. At some point, the current financial construct is likely to fail; a majority of the bets laid by corporates and individuals will therefore be unrequitable. Leadership – already trending towards ideology and belief (‘It should come as no surprise then, that magical thinking, tribalism and cargo cults took over even the highest echelons of power.’ will rapidly need replaced. The societal chaos can only be guessed at.

Future societal scientific needs, though, are obvious: monitoring will be paramount; even if done voluntarily. Extrapolation thereof, too; our operating margins – ultimately between food/energy production and habitat reduction - will be too narrow to negotiate blindly. Thus, the science that corporate-bought politics currently seeks to silence, is – unsurprisingly – the very science we will need.

Conclusion

We have been churning out bricks for 150 years, without questioning the validity or permanency of the wall. Science inevitably made large early strides for little outlay, but now regularly demands large outlays (think; Large Hadron Collider) to add small particles of knowledge; arguably a waste of the resources and time remaining to deal with our existential precarity. Education – science included – was built and paid for in a growth phase which was temporary, and which is peaking.

Addressing of the inevitable degrowth phase, is the overarching imperative of our time. That includes reducing consumption to maintainable levels; holding entropy at bay; re-evaluating just about everything. Science and education will traverse this evolution like everything else, with the important proviso that they will be the most important tools in our toolkit. Contemplating their formats, use and delivery ahead of time, is about the most important contribution anyone can make at this juncture; a ball better caught than dropped.

*Murray Grimwood comments on interest.co.nz as powerdownkiwi.

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65 Comments

Thanks Murray. I broached this topic at a dinner party consisting entirely of medical specialists. Not a single person there had considered it, and worse, they all thought I was being ridiculous, and that advances in AI and energy production would save us all. No amount of education will raise the general populace to such a level that this will be accepted. Sadly, rapid de-growth and all of its collective problems will be forced upon us.

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People only see danger when it is imminent.

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Thanks.

This is the latest update; Figure3 is a thought-provoker....

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jiec.13442

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Wow - food production falls off a cliff in 2025. Next year.

I wouldn't be surprised - we are already seeing it in terms of the food basket that Ukraine is; bird flu (nearly everywhere and soon to come to NZ); failed crops throughout the African continent; draught in Australia affecting livestock; I could go on and on.

So, I'm acutely aware of all these issues, but 2025?  Way sooner than I'd have predicted.

Time for those of us that are aware to prepare - as prepared people will be able to sustain their neighbours through the sharp end of the collapse.

Human nature in NZ is (to my mind) quite good - we banded all together during the COVID crisis - and we'll do the same through what is to come in the next couple of years. 

I find it heartening that there is so much resistance to this government's intent to scale back/skimp on the school lunch program. Everyone in their right mind would rather ensure all children got at least one square, hot meal per day, than any of their 'glory' projects in terms of new highways.

We're coming into a time where "Vive La Résistance" kind of takes on a new meaning for a new time - in other words, live the resistance to the growth forever on a finite planet political mantra.  Read, prepare and look after your neighbours/fellow humans.  And tell your politicians to ..... (will let you fill in the blank yourselves).

Or as I pointed out to my students: Be the Difference (the UN even has a coffee mug with the slogan).  

 

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"Time for those of us that are aware to prepare - as prepared people will be able to sustain their neighbours through the sharp end of the collapse."

Kate, as an academic and regular contributor to discussions here, I am sure others would listen with interest as to how you should prepare for the collapse?

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Collapse was probably the wrong word - as it implies an end to life itself; and that's not as I imagine de-growth will happen. It will be more gradual.

But, if you look at Fig 3 - you will see a sudden sharp downturn in food production in 2025. If such a downturn is that marked/sudden, then there will likely be shock-type shortages and major supply chain disruptions - similar to what we saw with COVID and toilet paper - where panic buying in quantity caused more disruption than was necessary.  If I recall, it took stores a few days to put in place quantity limits/restrictions - and then regular buying habits returned.

So, I suspect when/if a global shock hits, rationing will be introduced, such as was done during WWII;

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/what-you-need-to-know-about-rationing-in…

Of course what is rationed here will have much to do with what isn't grown/produced locally. A good example of preparation that comes to mind for me are sardines - high in nutrition for weight; easy to store; non-perishable.  We normally buy for the pantry as required, so I'll likely stock it up if signs indicate more food production disruption than we're currently seeing.  Should've done this years ago for EQ prep - just haven't been motivated yet.  And if you have enough space/land a food forest on whatever scale you can plant is a good idea.  There are also many lists put together by people who have found themselves in a war zone where scarcity is commonplace - and those too are a good place to start. It's really just commonsense.

Thing is, many families can't afford to stock up a pantry, so those with the means should do so with the view to share if shtf.  

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Much of the arguments mirror that of Thomas Malthus in the 1700s. There is only so much land, water and sunshine  once you deplete them you there was no way you could further increase. Leading to depopulation. (Or so he thought)

What he didn’t count on was the discovery of guano as a fertiliser, the mechanisation of food production, the gains from breeding or our ability to store and transport food.

Human ingenuity and science has been at the core of this continued growth. If anything it appears growth is accelerating rather than slowing down. From artificial intelligence, robotics, genetic engineering and space.

i also disagree with the notion there is no need continue research into climate change as won’t change the trajectory. Just because you understand something is happening does not know we understand the full impacts as it’s hugely complicated web. Take something like the impact of climate change impacting sea currents. This will impacts fish populations, which impacts our fishing industries. It impacts marine pests and disease and invasive species, it impacts where capital investment goes. it impacts land erosion to extreme weather events.  If you want a resilient economy you need the best information to make the best decisions for tommorow.  Climate change research provides the basis for further targeted investment and the basis for identify problems for which solutions need to be sought.

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Just out of interest, put yourself through this: https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2015/04/programmed-to-ignore/

You see, I regard your comment as illogical, you don't. One of us must be wrong. Let's ask how much guano is left? Or whether it was really relevant? I suggest Haber Bosch via fossil - and therefore finite - fuels was the major kicker. And therefore temporary. 

Look at the green line (food production) in Figure 3 - does AI, or space travel, impact that? So why did you introduce them? I suggest it's like religion; a need to believe a narrative, which has overridden the need to ascertain what does the underwriting. (for instance, it takes a lot of energy to get a very small payload into space...

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The point of my argument was that Thomas Malthus similarly made such arguments. However his predictions where misplaced as he could not envisage the innovation that would occur.

As you have just demonstrated you too can’t envisage the innovation that is already occurring in space and AI and how that could impact food (you thought it was irrelevant) I pre-context my response by saying I am a kiwi scientist who is currently using satellites (ie space) and AI to improve harvest yields.

Now I can easily list 20 ways these technologies are going to have huge impacts on food production and waste. From using satalites and AI for breeding, supply chain optimisation to reduce waste,  improved climate predictions to inform which crops or cultivars to be planted, AI powered autonomous harvesting systems,  AI and satellite crop monitoring for nutrients, pest and stress detection. 

However combine AI and Biotechnology and we start seeing technologies like the design of enzymes (googles alpha fold) to make proteins, we also see technologies that are currently used in the US where gentically modified bacteria on plant roots capture nitrogen (removing need for fertiliser).

I could go on. There are numerous technologies in development that will continuously improve breeding, crop management, reduce waste.  AI and space have a huge part.

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You confuse technology with energy. 

ALL, REPEAT ALL,  UNDERWRITE OF ALL TECHNOLOGY, IS ENERGY. 

No exceptions. Lab food doesn't scale, therefore. 

You don't see things properly - as in: through an energy lens. 

https://www.thegreatsimplification.com/animations

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Correct. Human ingenuity has allowed our species to more completely degrade our planets resource base and life support systems. Space? You do realise Star trek isn't a documentary right? 

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You do realise what Rocket Labs do, right ?

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You do realise that it takes 55kg of fuel to each kg of payload, right?

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Making the best decisions for tomorrow probably should involve taking our collective feet off the natural systems that support human habitation of Earth. AKA Degrowth. 

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I fear you are to remain Cassandra...after all Donella Meadows attempted the same for decades and I present to you America.....with a projected Trump second presidency

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I can assure you - a second Trump presidency IS the collapse of that society.

So, yes, if he gets in everything pdk predicted comes true for that country.

I just hope my son has the sense to get out of there before they seal the boarders with respect to emigration.

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The scarcest resource is not oil, metals, clean air, capital, labour, or technology. It is our willingness to listen to each other and learn from each other and to seek the truth rather than seek to be right

A Guess Who for you, Let me be Frank. 

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Id have to agree with D.Meadows...'wisdom' is indeed the scarcest (and undervalued) resource.

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Is PDK right? He believes(or did) that as predicted in Blip, societal collapse will happen in or by 2050. He also believes that the carrying capacity of earth is no more than 2 billion-or less. Thus, if correct, my grandchildren will see their world ripped apart with chaos on an unimaginable scale. He is a true prophet of doom and like all prophets, admits of no possibility of error in any respect.

I find the absolute certainty of all prophets unappealing. Much of what he says simple commonsense. We exploit the easy to get at resources first and thus, their EROI declines as we dig deeper and in more remote areas. All such resources are finite-excluding mining in space-so at some point our economic future will look different to today, but I refuse to accept as inevitable, PDK's prognosis. For a start, our resources will last a great deal longer than he predicts, thus giving us more time to for a transition, but to what? Not being a prophet, i can't be certain, but I think we will see a much greater use of nuclear power. Even without fission, our nuclear waste can be reused. It is of course possible that the future will unravel-as has been said, if WW3 breaks out, then WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones and mankind is stupid enough to go down that road, but i remain optimistic. I refuse to just accept that the world as we know it, is soon destined to end in chaos.

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Societal collapse won't happen all at once. It is a degeneration over time. 2050 is when the IPCC predicts climate change to start getting a lot worse if we don't reduce emissions in that time to zero. This will speed up societal collapse. Also all long term models are incorrect, but some are useful. The nature of this wicked problems means we can't necessarily quantify timing or extent of collapse.

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Im not as confident as you appear to be about 'a gradual decline'....already in evidence is widespread loss of credibility/authority by national bodies and demonstrated civil disorder....and that is with the current level of resources/access

History would indicate that will not be tollerated for long and conflict both internal and cross border can be expected...be it balkanisation and/or strict authoritarianism neither suggest a graduallity or order.

NZ being so physically isolated is perhaps best placed to cope in such a scenario but only if it uses its resources wisely.

 

 

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Yes, as pdk will know, I'm the eternal optimist as well.  But I won't let optimism get in the way of preparation. And neither should our government.  They need to wake up and prepare, regardless of whether it happens. For example, there will be certain meds not manufactured here that should be stockpiled (antibiotics, asthma medications - and anything else that afflicts youth in particular). 

The first thing they should be thinking of is that we will need strong minds and strong bodies from this younger generation going forward.  All children are taonga - time they understood that.

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All children are taonga - time they understood that.

Exabit A:  Housing in NZ

The 'they' you speak of were voted in by someone...

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Sure they were.

Still, doesn't mean the compassionate amongst us should shy away from speaking truth to power.

And yes, housing, housing, housing.  I'm onto it;

https://www.interest.co.nz/property/119377/katharine-moody-takes-look-r…

And in touch/corresponding with Chris Bishop's office.

Just need a bit of time to get my second 'edition' of this plan written down :-).  They've said they're waiting for it!

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Sorry Kate, I may not have been clear, I definitely agreed with your post.

Murray86 used to talk about regulating rents and I always thought that wouldn't work but I came around to thinking it *could*.  A bit like PDK, another Murray that shifted my view over time.  Your suggestion is excellent, I think it could work.

My question, certainly the price (rent) can be lowered and your method is the best idea on how to do it I've seen.  However, supply is pretty fixed, so in theory there will be more demand at a lower price point (eg couples might like their own place instead of living with flat mates, 20-somethings might like to move out from home).  With your US background, you may have insight as I understand they have rent controlled apartments etc but I suspect we would end up with more people wanting a place than there are places available.  This could hit the already vulnerable families hardest, at least in the short term.  Do you advocate a lowering of immigration to dampen demand at that same time this is implemented?  Or maybe you don't agree with my line of thought here (that demand would rise significantly with lower rents)?

You mention this "Those tenants in rent controlled properties tend to stay put, whilst all others are subject to market forces." in the link, so I'm basically saying if we regulate rents down then those that can stay put will be fine, but those that have to leave might be high and dry as they then compete with the increased demand.  High and dry meaning there is no available house despite them having the money to pay for it.

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With your US background, you may have insight as I understand they have rent controlled apartments etc

Thanks Murray - I agreed with your statement - many of our social ills start with housing.  And the problem you foresee of people staying put once they get a place in a rent-controlled property (consider state housing here, as that is rent controlled to no more than 25% of income - whatever one's income is) is a problem of all overseas schemes I've seen.

That is why I designed a formula that would be able to be universally applied to all residential rentals - be they standalone homes - through to units in an apartment complex.  Every property rented to the public for residential tenancy would be subject to the same rent controls.  The formula which is 'pegged' to GV - ensures higher value properties can charge higher rents; and the other aspect (variable) of the formula is tying rents to 30% of the local/regional median household income (thus allowing for differences in incomes nationwide).  Once implemented, the accommodation supplement is no longer needed - as rents are affordable in accordance with that ' no more than 30% of gross income' to define/achieve affordability.

The risk regarding shortages of rental properties, is that property owners (landlords) will not make enough yield - and instead will sell to an owner-occupier. Hence, I've suggested the government beef-up and improve their shared-equity scheme.  In other words, giving nearly everyone the ability to buy.  As I told Parliament during the last term - to my mind the only difference between a landlord and their tenant is a deposit.  As a general rule, landlords calculate/expect a yield based on a tenant paying for all the costs of holding/owning the property (including interest costs and rates, etc.).  Hence, the only difference between a landlord and a tenant is a deposit (and the tenant being credit worthy; and hence the government needs to re-look at a government-run, shared equity scheme).

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Every property rented to the public for residential tenancy would be subject to the same rent controls.

Yes, universal application is important and I agree with everything you said above.  I'm sure you'll be aware lower land prices are a pet subject of mine and if they came to pass those rental yields would look much better...I view it as an opportunity to de-leverage (de-grow) at the expense of mainly overseas owned banks.

However, I think you may have missed my point on the demand side.  Due to the new affordability, I think there will be an increased demand from people for a 'home of their own'.  For example, say 2 couples are flatting in a 2 b/r house for $800pw.  The rent controls come in and that house may now only be rented for $400pw.  Now each couple can afford to have their own 2 b/r house (one room left vacant as study or for visiting guests).  It would be a sign of success of the policy - but it might mean a population of 5mil that was housed in 2mil houses now wants 2.5mil houses 'overnight' to live in and in my example it's unlikely to be one of the couples that misses out.  My suggestion is that if your policy was implemented, it might pay to have some 'population growth' controls in mind while it was being transitioned to.

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Good point.

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It is so great to see people taking ideas and thinking about them. Thank you Murray for your kind comments.

My concern is that we do not fall into the trap that so many do, and do not insist that 'rent controls' can succeed in isolation. Pollies will do that just to sabotage a policy and prove it won't work. So a policy must be a part of a 'package' of policies that all relate to each other and manage different aspects of 'social housing'. 

i would anticipate landlords crying foul. But my view is that they have made a business decision and have no right to expect the taxpayer to underwrite their risk. 

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Not at all, to me the whole point I read and post comments is to aid learning, have people pick holes in my ideas to find things I've missed and have the odd laugh too.

Pollies will do that just to sabotage a policy and prove it won't work.

Yes, nothing like dumbing down a policy to avoid some short-term pain and end up losing the long-term benefits.  Simple universal policy is best, even our pension, we could means test it but then how many would squander/give away things just to meet the means test.  A whole lot of unproductive activity that would show up as the economy growing.

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Is PDK right?

I'm open to it, are you when you use words like 'refuse'?  Like you I hope there will be gains from new technology to avoid the chaos you speak of, but they'd better get a move on as people are already squealing about rates and insurance which still aren't high enough to maintain the status quo.  i.e. I feel we're pretty close/already seeing to a locked in lower standard of living for your grandchildren.  To be fair, PDK has been suggesting action to avoid the worst-case scenario you attribute to him.

Even if you don't like the message, you may still take some of the medicine 'just in case' PDK is correct.  For example, support politicians that seek to reduce our population (all we need to do is reduce immigration as natural births already below replacement) and debt (lower land prices = less debt, so taxation and banking/lending reform).  To me both are desirable for the society your grandchildren with live in regardless of whether NZ runs out of cheap energy.

The last 25 years of NZ's shelter and immigration policy has convinced me 'mankind is stupid enough' unfortunately.

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The last 25 years of NZ's shelter and immigration policy has convinced me 'mankind is stupid enough' unfortunately.

Have you read this?  https://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc0402/article_316.s…

He was a prophet, a man that had wisdom beyond our/his time. 

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I cannot recall - it's all good common-sense stuff though.  I've bemoaned here in the past that the Maori Party hasn't stood up for their namesake by demanding this at a minimum (probably the single best thing they could do to help NZ and give 'their own' more opportunities to participate meaningfully):

The present generation of Maori leaders abide by the agreement of their ancestors to allow immigration into New Zealand from the countries nominated in the preamble of the treaty, namely Europe, Australia and the United Kingdom. But, for any variation of that agreement to be validated, they expect the Government to consult them as the descendants of the Crown's treaty partner. The Human Rights Commission endorsed that position with its recommendation to government that the Treaty of Waitangi should be considered in any decisions on immigration policy. The Commission's advice was not properly heeded.

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Yes, that's the most important point of the article - successive governments have not consulted with their Treaty partner on immigration matters. Before reading this article I had never read the Preamble of Te Tiriti.

 

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You're confusing "optimism" and "refuse to accept" with physics. "Men argue, nature acts" Voltaire 

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I hope this improved education will give the back ground context to this neo-malthusian revival you are promoting Murray.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusianism

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In chess, when you realise you've lost, you knock over your King. 

In debate, you resort to name-calling. It indicates the same thing. 

Try bothering to make the time to assimilate the link I put up downthread (reply to Pacifica). 

As I say, it is for several thousand Canadian Professors - perhaps you could contact the moderator and ask how many of them mounted valid rebuttals, and if you could record content of same? It would be a step above denial-via-denigration. 

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Malthus was a genuine thinker with a well thought out perspective. Over the centuries he has had supporters and detractors. Supporters have updated his thinking to include other resources. Moving from food to energy. Murray I do not know why you would ignore this history. Why would you call it name calling?

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I agree - he is one of my heroes thinking-wise. And his posit was only staved off, temporarily, by fossil energy. 

I rate Soddy as good or better..

And I rate Daniel Quinn up there too.

But when someone calls someone Malthusian - and that person is a promoter of growth - I presume it is derogatory, Sorry if I got that wrong...

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Yes, it annoys me too.  Malthus was a great philosopher - amongst many great philosophers. Like Marx, the only folks who use the name in a derogatory way are those who have never read/studied philosophy. For them I would suggest they start with the Greeks and work their way though history.

Best pastime I could recommend!

LOVE PHILOSOPHY;

https://plato.stanford.edu/

 

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Come on PDF. Stop the nonsense talk in the weekend. None of this is ever going to happen. I’m not sure why you would bother to write all of this long winded piffle. Better to find something more constructive to do I think.

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What's more constructive in your book?  Follow on the stock market, or better yet, the Real Estate paraphernalia?  To each his own.

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Whatever I do Is none of your concern really. However, what I will say is that it is a lot More constructive than wasting heaps of time and writing screeds of made up nonsense about the sky falling in. Maybe we should collectively write an article on Santa Claus and spend a lot of time arguing whether he exists and really does come down the chimney each year…..

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Surely, though, it is? 

If you run a farm and pollute the waterway she takes grandchildren to swim in, does that not impact her negatively? 

And can giving her money alleviate your impact on her? 

Yes, and no, respectively. 

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If you want to teach science you actually need to be aware of the science itself and the key factors of it. What you are talking about is social engineering. In case you skipped high school that is always subject to the bias and ignorance of the policy researchers. Not even population statistics are free of incredible bias and exclusion of much of the population. Welcome to the side that does not constitute science. You would have benefited from a better education system if we actually had one teaching STEM first.

Using absolutes and claiming scientific certainty on models is rightfully called out as deceptive, manipulative and actually demonstrates a poorer understanding of science then those you are attacking. There has never been a defined certainty because of a key factor the assumptions we make in most of our models and our limitations in assuming closed systems. Next time here is an idea try consensus with accounting for living needs. Our real world weather system monitoring data is available and there are many much more scientific educational sources which actually are aimed for climate scientists that also train for appropriate methods for dealing with science communication to the public, & providing critical evaluations of the skeptics research as well proponents. Note: not skeptics or proponents of anthropogenic climate change but of location specific changes, models used for predictions and analysis derived from such models.

Claiming we will have a sudden loss in power sources when much of the population already just burns anything they can regardless of the health effects to neighbours and their own family (see our upcoming beach bonfires), is exceptionally naive. Sure you will find it hard to run a generator to keep refrigerated medical supplies to the right temp but severe health effects to vulnerable population members has never been an issue that gets much traction. Even respiratory support is absent to most in need. See our decades of literal harm, neglect and medical torture that is often left out of our tertiary education systems in our efforts to ignore and make it disappear from common knowledge (where if taught instead we could at least prevent it further occurring).

The real crisis is who cares for those at the poorest levels when those making predictions, plans and policies place themselves so remote and often devalue the lives of the poorest over ideological tit for tat with their peers. It is not a simple issue as this is already an issue that has played in the last 50 years and even with global organizations like the UN placing pressure it is meaningless to all sides of politics; with some of the greatest betrayals have been by those who market themselves as more socially conscious, even though they commit the worst abuses at the same time.

It is age old and with our political policy makers selected as they are and pooling data based on discrimination and exclusion as it will this will never change. Resources may dwindle, power, food, water may be rarer resources but humanity as a whole pushes through regardless. Most of the populations experiencing resource crisis just burn any biological matter, with rare species lost and plant fast growing harmful species in their place to burn again. They then start small local conflicts to retain control (mostly ideological claiming it is over religion but to hold control is the end goal).

In NZ those with the most power will push on regardless of the harm they do and in the end we still have much of the same issues again. Not a single policy in the past 20 years has made a significant difference. All govt department leaders and politicians are all buying more power and wealth divide to insulate their positions. Until those who make policy & in power truly experience the same lives as those they affect the most nothing will ever change. Seeing all the toys thrown out of their cots when a tiny 3 month lockdown happened, while all essential access was still available, and the call for high benefit & MH support for those during the lockdown who suddenly were not working was hilarious. Or the bailing out of banks & SCF. Oh the poor babies will go to any lengths to not ever have the same destitution of those they harm.

All our government depts and media are riddled with such people. Just look at the complete hypocrisy during the govt dept back office hiring freeze and redundancies. Sadly the dog whistles work on those who are easily lead and ignorant of much of the population in destitution. A growing failure in education rates and more of the population being denied basic school education does not help this. Predominantly we just end up in a Make Room Make Room scenario. Many highly dense cities are almost there already. Just missing a couple of final steps to truly replicate it.

The sad thing about the loss of dedicated science education in the public is you end up with articles like this which only perpetuate more advocacy for endeavours that contribute far more harm to humanity and the environment and only increase the inequity. Hence just those two steps in Make Room Make Room are the final piece to the puzzle. Or 3% if you can speak the language.

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You pour out many words, and make little sense. Yes, the psychopaths always rise to power, or as my late old man used to say; the scum always floats to the surface. But change comes from outside the System - always. As I said, incumbent winners don't willingly relinquish power. 

But rather than being in outpouring denial, try divesting all the cranial clutter, and listen:

https://natehagens.substack.com/p/a-systems-approach-towards-a-more

For several thousand Canadian professors....

 

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But change comes from outside the System - always. 

Yes, as has been proven using scientifically-based, quantitative and qualitative research.  The key to change lies in a strong civil society.  The collapse of that is a real concern for many social scientists. 

One of the foundational textbooks on the subject/matter is;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone

That said, a lot of what was said by pasifica makes perfect sense to me.  Everyone expresses themselves differently - it's a walk-in-my-shoes perspective that is often hard to interpret.  But I 'get it'.

 

 

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What outpouring of denial. Did you lose your ability to have reading comprehension for anything except glowing yes men praise of yourself pdk. Poor pdk, you seem to demonstrate a greater loss in understanding STEM and the failures of our current education system that will perpetuate even more social harm in future then those you attack. I get it that you think ideological arguments must be praised for the irrelevant trivia but when is comes to concrete actions taken by any political system and their effects on the public you might want to check who you affect the most and the greatest level of harm done. As any failure will lead to incredible intergenerational damage, leading to even more social push back over the course of decades.

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You conflate. 

Reminds me of the front bench of the previous government - confusing social with physical. 

Depletion is depletion, dissipation is dissipation, sink-capacity is sink-capacity. These are physically immutable. The idea that human ingenuity/superiority can override, is both ignorant, and arrogant. 

 

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Information retention – mindlessly assumed to be via the internet, forever – is likely to revert to less energy-intensive, less technology-reliant formats. Written word, hard-copy; in other words, books

This makes me wonder if you've ever shifted house with a lot of full bookcases to move, or visited a paper mill, a printing press, or analysed how energy intensive shipping those bricks of dead wood around the world is, compared to distributing a pdf/epub file.

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You miss the point. The books ALREADY EXIST; the environmental damage HAS BEEN DONE. 

And if you want to rely on just-in-time global supply-chains; global servers, global grids (40% coal-fired still) and payment systems (no wages, no grid maintenance), fine. Me, I'm old enough to remember VHS, Beta, 5.5 floppies, 3.5 floppies, cassette, 8-track..... So far, books have outlasted them all. 

 

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I love hard copy.  Whenever I proof my own work - I have to do it in hardcopy.  Whenever I read an important article that I've downloaded - I always print it out in hardcopy.  The amount of paper I've used over the course of my life doing that - I hate to think.  All my best friends tell me to get a Kimble, or some other sort of unlimited access to all the books I want to read.  But, I'm yet to want to read them in other than hardcopy.

LOL.  I'm a dinosaur - and I know it.

But I do worry about reading comprehension on a device/online. I've worked with students on a one-on-one basis - and the speed with which they say they have finished reading what I am reading alongside them online - amazes me.  They are way, way, way ahead of me in speed.  Now I know some folks can speed read (it's a very common trait amongst lawyers) but I'm not convinced everyone has that ability.  Yet the read and swipe habit of the generation raised on devices is a concern.

Reading fast is not the best of habits to form, to my mind - as one should read for enjoyment as much as comprehension.

 

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I was taught speed reading at around 12, by my old man. 

Essentially, you scan down the middle of the page, occasionally slowing/flicking left/right if you didn't get it. The premise is a bit like attending a lecture; you're likely to get 1 or 2 or 3 new things out of 50 minutes. 

Sometimes it is impossible; Chomsky is like that; dense in every sentence, so you have to drop back and read every one. Every word in every one, even. 

I get through 3 biggish non-fiction works a week, on average, besides running an off-grid lifestyle and a forest, plus plus plus... but Chomsky....

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...living now, at the expense of the future...

All civilisations live now at the expense of the future. All civilisations ruse and fall. When one collapses another takes its place.

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Correct.  We should not fear change - but then neither should we walk ourselves off the cliff willingly.

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No. That is trite, glib, and wrong. 

Some civilisations rise where others had existed, after a regeneration-time, and if they develop alternative sources or technologies. But there are many which s--t in their nests so thoroughly that recovery never happened. Sumer/southern Iraq being a saline example. 

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Actually the evidence we have is many have sht in their nests so thoroughly the damage is severe and harmful to human health (e.g. contamination of key large river sources see the history of the Thames, Rhine, Yangtze, Ganges etc) but people do live in even greater levels around them. Yes the social environments have changed but the environmental damage is there and we knowingly have even more people trying to use such key waterways for waste, even for religious reasons, which they place at higher importance above the damage to the environment. You might think then that there would be some social detriment to losing safe use of the key waterways but we engineered around them with measures that considering our current engineering capability in NZ would be considered wondrous.

Your failure was instead of picking large areas of upheaval, population growth, environmental damage, and trade you picked southern Iraq... and assume every community in the world is the same as when it comes to development or would react in the same way. Only in areas of severe nuclear meltdown & waste is an area less likely for human development. However there are many social & scientific reasons why a war torn nation with severe social and religious upheaval does not succeed in population recovery & development in the very short term (very short considering the time frame for human community development). I wonder if you could have guessed why using Iraq as an example for the world would be incredibly misguided and silly. It is not even a good example to use among the many countries which have extensive minefields & military waste. There are many very glowing large reasons why it is over centuries not a key example of civilization and population development or even an example of environmental damage. Some history would help. In case you did not realize it the environment has always been the least most pressing and severe issue that prevents social & community development in southern Iraq. Which is ironic considering the archeological records we have going back more then 8000 years. 

Did you even ask yourself what are the key causes for human migration and settlement? I take it this may be an interesting wake up call. Hate to dump a couple thousand years of world history at your door but geez you should start learning from actual history and not playing around with artificial constructs of philosophy which even the authors admitted did nothing to affect most the development of their cities, and barely shifted the dial in the development afterward.

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Sumer was Iraq thousands of years ago you know actual history.

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The key cause of human migration, is overshoot; overrunning of local resources. 

Europe had to do it 200 years ago; covered the planet, Cape-ot-Cairo railway in their case, Belt and Road in China's - both resource-sucks from 'elsewhere'. 

The US filled with Europeans, from east to west. It appeared empty - while there was a frontier and room to shift it. Then the US bled itself, winning two world wars on its high-quality energy. Then it needed to look offshore; the result has been the biggest political/dominating hegemony of the last 80 years, but now foundering. 

But  it took Trump to tell them they were 'full'- as opposed to the 'give us your huddled masses' inside the Statue of Liberty. The problem is that the whole planet is over-full; we're running an experiment which has been run many time locally, but never globally. And that can only jhappen once; there isn't the remaining energy to re-boot (so few folk understand that, despite it being fossil energy which took us from 1 billion to 8). 

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Don't think you can credit Trump with any vision in the population stakes. Team Trump doesn't recognise the US is full, just filling up with the ""wrong sort of people". The US is becoming increasingly dysfunctional. A frontier mentality that  has lost its reason to exist. There is no cure for overshoot that doesn't involve the rise of fascism.

As Monbiot quote goes, "If kindness and comfort are, as I suspect, the results of an energy surplus, then, as the supply contracts, we could be expected to start fighting once again like cats in a sack. In the presence of entropy, virtue might be impossible."

Only it's not just energy we'll be fighting over, it'll be water, food, soil, and the parts of the planet with a viable climate.

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I enjoy your contributions PDK. I watch the comment threads refuting your points constantly, but very little has substance, more personal attacks than anything. When I read some of literature (I won’t claim to have read it all) it made me feel uncomfortable. I think this is a feeling it invokes in a lot of people because, infinite growth on a finite planet is impossible, and not actually that difficult to understand. 

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PDK good article, but I do have an issue with how you couch your case. You state "all overshot species collapse" but up to that point it could be interpreted that all you are talking about is consumption, and even that point some would bend to be meaning just consumption.

But no matter the technology level a species can overshoot the numbers that the environment can sustain, and as i have argued in the past, as a species we have overshot at our current technology levels. There are simply too many people. Without some extreme level of intervention (not going to happen!) collapse is inevitable. Only a matter of when.

How do we manage a population decline? Stop importing people, and stop paying people to have children. Child poverty is a parental choice not a state responsibility!

But unless the rest of the world changes we are screwed!

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Thank you

A lot - most - people don't see things in energy terms. We have levered fossil energy as a one-off pulse, without which I suspect we'd be at perhaps 2-3 billion now, max. Without that lever....

the cliff is quite high...  (have a good look at that Figure3 in the link - or search Limits to Growth 2023 ). Note the green line inflecting, the one Kate noted. Is that not of concern? Nothing much to do with other productivity; all to do with feeding billions. 

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Last week in a comment stream I posed the question that if we were living in caves and wearing animal skins for clothing could the planet support us all at 9 billion. I think the answer is obviously not. So to a degree technology and structured farming for example can delay those limits, but they certainly cannot be removed or push out indefinitely.

I would have thought the threshold would not be food production, but then if the climate changes sufficiently due to other inputs, then food production would be significantly impacted. Because of our smaller size and geographic positioning making our climate somewhat more stable and temperate, NZ could be well positioned as a food basket, but anthropological history suggests it is really easy to poison the land long term if we try too hard to extract food from limited land areas. And we still could not feed that many people anyway.

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Great post. I walk every week (up a mountain and, strange as it may seem, back down) with a retired energy/physics professor; today's walking discussion was exactly that - will CC 'get us first'  via food-production curtailment? 

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