By Greg Ninness
Migration remains by far the main driver of demand for housing in Auckland, accounting for more than two thirds of the region’s population growth.
Statistics NZ estimates that Auckland’s population increased by 44,300 people in the year to June, with 69.5% of the increase (30,800 people) coming from migration and just 30.5% (13,500 people) due to the natural increase in population (the excess of births over deaths).
As the graph below shows, that’s a dramatic turnaround from the situation just three years ago when migration increased Auckland’s population by just 7000 and accounted for just under a third (32%) of its population growth.
The table below shows how much Auckland’s population increased over the last five years, with the annual increase more than doubling from 21,700 in the year to June 2012 to 44,300 in the year to June 2016.
That increase was entirely due to an explosion in net migration, which increased nearly five-fold over the same period, rising from a net gain of 6500 in the year to June 2012 to 30,800 in the 12 months to June this year, while the natural increase in Auckland’s population steadily declined over the same period, falling from 15,200 in 2012 to 13,500 in in 2016.
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As the table shows, the biggest surge in migration occurred from 2013/14 onwards as the Government encouraged immigration on a number of fronts to try and spur economic growth.
That included creating what became known as a "pathway to residency" for overseas students studying here, which resulted in a huge influx of overseas students applying for residency at the end of their studies, a scheme that has since run into numerous problems.
And migration numbers have kept rising ever since, with the latest figures from Statistics NZ showing New Zealand’s total gain from migration hit a record high in October, suggesting that the growth is yet to peak.
Such rapid population growth has had an obvious effect on Auckland’s housing market.
According to the 2013 census, there was an average of three people for every dwelling in Auckland.
To maintain that level of occupancy, 14,766 new homes would have been needed in Auckland in the year to June to accommodate the extra 44,300 people that started calling the region home over the same period.
Consents two-thirds of what's needed
But the migration-driven surge in demand for homes has occurred so rapidly that the building industry hasn’t been able to keep up.
In the year to June only 9651 new dwellings were consented in Auckland which was just two thirds (65%) of what was required, leaving an estimated shortfall of 5115 homes for the year.
The real worry of that is there has been a shortfall in the number of homes needed to accommodate Auckland’s growing population for several years, and since 2012 the accumulated shortfall has grown to more than 20,000 homes (refer table).
If you track the figures back to 2010 then the accumulated shortfall is more than 30,000 homes.
So although the problem is not new, it has been exacerbated over the last three years by the rapid increase in migration.
The combination of a growing housing shortage relative to population growth, record low mortgage interest rates, and the eagerness of banks to rake in bumper profits by loading their customers up with debt, has created the twin perils of a debt mountain and asset price bubble which have set off alarm bells at the Reserve Bank.
There have also been some unfortunate social outcomes, such as a younger generation which is increasingly priced out of home ownership and desperate living conditions for many at the bottom of the economic heap.
The Auckland Council whipping boy
The Government’s response to the unfolding housing crisis in Auckland was two pronged.
Firstly it would stridently avoid admitting there was a crisis, it was merely a “challenge,” we were told.
Then when the size of the problem became so big it could no longer be denied, blame was shifted elsewhere, and Auckland Council became the whipping boy for the housing shortage.
However, while the Council's planning and development may have been due for an overhaul, pushing all the blame on to it for the housing shortage seems unfair.
How could any council have foreseen the huge influx of migrants that was about to arrive in the city, and even if it did, capacity restraints within the construction industry meant the supply of new homes wouldn't have kept up anyway.
It is also worth remembering that if the Government had kept migration at around the same level it was in 2013, then more than enough new homes would be being built now to cope with the region's housing needs.
But blaming the council set the stage for Housing Minister Nick Smith to cast himself in the role as the champion of Auckland’s housing needs and it would not have been a surprise to see him and his trusty sidekick, former Auckland Mayor Len Brown, turning up to the opening of a sleepout as they pranced across fields of photo opportunities trying to convince us that Special Housing Areas would rise to meet Auckland’s housing “challenges.”
To give them credit, the number of new homes consented in Auckland has doubled since 2012, but clearly the extra supply has not been enough and the housing shortage keeps getting bigger.
That’s because when the Government opens the immigration taps, the effect is almost immediate.
New migrants start arriving within a few months and they need somewhere to live the minute they step off the plane.
But cranking up the housing industry takes years.
For the construction of new homes to meet the surge in demand caused by the huge increase in net migration that occurred from 2014 onwards, the number of new homes being built would need to have gone from the 5343 that were actually consented in the year to June 2013, to the 11,266 that were required to meet population growth in the year to June 2014 (refer table).
That means construction of new homes in Auckland would need to have more than doubled within the space of a year, and then increased by around almost a third again over the following two years.
It doesn’t matter how many Special Housing Areas you create or planning rules you simplify, growth in construction on that scale is simply not possible in such a short timeframe.
Reckless or incompetent?
These problems should all have been foreseen when the Government left the immigration taps open three years ago.
If it didn’t, that suggests incompetence.
And if they did see the problems and proceeded anyway, it reeks of recklessness.
So take your pick. Reckless or incompetent?
If I was a betting man, I’d have a dollar each way.
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87 Comments
Reckless – immigration has placed a huge burden on what was already stretched infrastructure Health Education, Housing etc.
Most immigrants have not brought new export earning businesses to NZ but taken jobs Local kiwis would/should have filled :(
Wealthy immigrants a fair number don’t live in NZ have taken advantage of and exasperated the housing shortage by purchasing investment properties to make money of kiwis who are trapped/shut out due to un affordability.
I agree, & this is an additional option - corruption. These immigrant groups I understand give generously to election funds. Plus politicians are house owners and big-time landlords, so they are gaining from the shortage & ballooning house prices. So I think we can see it a calculating self-serving strategy.
Excellent article Greg. Is it 'reckless' or 'incompetent' ? My vote is both.
Also there has been a determination against all the evidence that it's a housing supply issue, with a supply solution. So how about 'dumb' and 'cynical' at the same time.
Mind you it's not only an Auckland issue. Southland has just announced a big plan to somehow get 10,000 more people. I can understand a thriving economy attracting more people, but expecting a bigger population to drive increased wealth is just 'wrong' and 'clueless' both.
Yes, frustrating, but entirely predictable. Our politicians and msm are cut mostly from the same PC, liberal, left-wing cloth and are suffering from the "Merkel" syndrome - that is, show "compassion" and open the floodgates to all the refugees and immigrants so that you are not deemed "racist" by the msm, UN, etc. However, this always leads to social unrest due to mainly economic factors and not racial ones. US citizens rioted against the Irish immigrants in the 1840s - obviously not due to "racist" reasons because they were white anyway - but due to that fact that the Irish were taking all the jobs and were more industrious. When the economy goes down, immigrants are always a clear target irrespective of race (witness Kiwi immigrants to Australia). The issue is that immigration needs to be at levels that we can manage financially and socially, and while you can debate the figures the "ideal" immigration figure is likely to be at least 50% lower than it is now.
What "floodgates"? For a start, the number of refugees that we take remains tiny and carefully controlled; our Government has not followed the disastrous European approach of opening the door to all and sundry.
Are the gates actually any more open now than they were before? Isn't it more the case that more well-qualified people want to stay, and come, here now that New Zealand is a more attractive place to live and work?
This government "far from left wing compassion" - have you actually looked at the welfare settings here recently?
I guess you have to determine which is better - low unemployment rate, good economy, high house prices and a bit of traffic, or high unemployment, bad economy but no population growth. Anyone who thinks NZ's good economy is due to anything other than high immigration is fooling themselves.
Lets not pretend that they can turn off the immigration tap off and nothing bad will happen...
Your implying there is no alternative to immigration. Perhaps there is no instant way to gain the economic positives it brings but surely long term planning and thinking could set the correct wheels in motion, long term immigration alone is definitely not the answer more the problem.
You assume you can choose, Peak oil says you get the latter, the Q is when and how fast and how bad.
In the mean time you certianly do not need high house prices to have a good economy.
I'd also argue that limited resources means that real wealth is per capita, so the more people here, the lower the per capita. Anything else is just some vested interest(s) are robbing others to pay themselves.
Summary of this article on the home page:
"Greg Ninness points out migration now accounts for two thirds of Auckland's population growth and is the main reason for the region's housing shortage"
Yes it's all about demand, its has always been about demand regardless of the spin vested parties put on it. National's (John Key's - lets call it for what it was regardless of all the post coital gushing following his exquisitely timed departure) whole economic package has been "immigrants building house for immigrants building houses for immigrants building houses for immigrants to infinity......" Poor ol Country Boy Bill must be the original thicko to take up the poisoned chalice. In the future people will ask - "why weren't we warned about JK's South Sea II Ponzi scheme?"
Is it TBTF - probably, how do you create a soft landing for this monster?
If you are a FHB don't walk away, run. Leave AKL / leave NZ.
About time
From my observations your article is the first instance of someone with a pulpit who has taken the gloves off
If you were to go back to editions of interest.co.nz 5 or more years ago you will find it was a serious issue then. Many of the commenters around at that time were giving it the bare-knuckle treatment then. Now, here we are 6 years later, and for the very first time someone has had the temerity to call it is it really is. Many of the commenters have given up and gone
They can clearly claim - they told you so
It was bad then
What do you think it is now
Money Money Money - For current national government everything is related to money, to have surplus. It does not matter how and what the consequence are in the long term.
Government is run by businessmen and not leaders who have a vision for the country and its people. As is run by businessmen, it is only money and surpluses forgetting that the the role of government besides managing the money is also to look after social well being and to create just society.
The perception of this government is : Deny, Lie and manipulate (Take the case of housing, homelessness, child poverty, health...............List can go on and on). One good example of this national legacy is Overseas buyer data. Act or not to act on that data is their prerogative and one can argue on that but why change/manipulate the definition of the the word foreign buyer and than manipulate it to suit their vested interest. If you are correct and confident of what you are doing, why lie. Everyone know one only manipulate and lie, when are at wrong. Problem is in NZ, Media does not ask tough question and let the government get away with a felling that have been successful in deceiving the people but forget that in today time of internet and social media - hard to fool and the result is Brexit and trump.
What is mention on news today is known to one and all that students are coming to NZ not to study but to gain residency as a result compromise is done at all level and the current government turns a blind eye as it suits them - get money.
Money Laundering - NZ has become a Tax heaven which too is known for one and all and is one of the reason housing crisis (anyone can bring money into NZ - No question asked and than the best place to park money is property as is safe and reliable investment)
Government is run by businessmen and not leaders who have a vision for the country and its people. As is run by businessmen, it is only money and surpluses forgetting that the the role of government besides managing the money is also to look after social well being and to create just society.
Have you considered that this is merely a symptom? Government is meant to act according to the wishes of the people, therefore it is the people who have no vision, who care only about money, who lack any sense of unity to create social well being and a just society.
Yes there are negatives but this expansion in our economy gives some great opportunities for the young entrepreneurial types to make some serious money. Tourism,consumer services are all booming due to the population growth so for those prepared to put some work in then it is an environment where you can thrive.
There are loads of opportunities out there...away from the obsessional housing market.
A few too many moaners on here.
No one can deny that immigration is high as is the only country in the developed world to get residency very easily and being Tax heaven adds to it.
I agree that leaders are not looking at long term consequences and are sowing seeds of social tension in future.
Anything in extreme is bad and is nothing to do with moaners but with facts. For personal narrow gains interest of people at large and of country could not be ignored.
"the only country in the developed world to get residency very easily" - What exactly is the basis for that? Have you examined the residency application process for all the countries in the developed world?
Because I have at least gone through the process for New Zealand and I can tell you I had to get across some pretty high hurdles, certainly a lot more than any of the hordes of refugees currently pouring across Europe's borders have had to do.
sad that so many have to live in auckland in ghettos because they dont have the language skills to integrate anywhere else.I dont think the govt is reckless or incompetent,they know exactly what they are doing and if you think it is devaluing your lifestyle then please vote them out.
Here you go
1 October 2011
The here and now is being accepted as the norm. I agree with some of Reason's points. Auckland has changed dramatically in the space of two decades, due largely to un-planned (un-controlled) growth brought about largely by un-controlled (un-planned) immigration. The qualities that attracted migration in recent years are being over-whelmed and changing the place, and not for the better. Reason says he doesn't want the changes being brought in. It is too late. It has already happened. Old-time residents, will be aware of it, but, like the frog-in-the-boiling-pot, it is part of the landscape and not so obvious. To the frequent visitor it is more than obvious.
Once upon a time, say 100 years ago, migration from say the UK and Ireland and parts of Europe tended to be the disenfranchised in their own land who sought the potential for a new start in the antipodes, the lands of milk and honey and sunshine. They tended to arrive with $1 in their pocket with the hope of a fresh start. They started at the bottom of the heap and pushed the locals who were already on the heap upwards.
Everyone benefitted. No-one was disadvantaged. Now, over the past two decades the game has changed. The wealthy from other countries are arriving as economic or political refugees with economic clout. They come in at the top of the heap and push the locals down economically speaking. They have the economic clout to out-bid the locals. Price no object.
The worst aspects are they are arriving at a rate greater than the existing society can assimilate them. They are organising into self-help enclaves. That is one very noticeable change in Auckland. The enclaves. It is new. It is foreign. With the consequential pushing the locals out of their nests, and out-pricing the local new-home creators.
http://www.interest.co.nz/node/55704/property#comment-645872
Are these (one American and two Mexican nationals) recent migrants, I wonder?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11766777
Some reporter ought to find out under what immigration scheme.setting they got residency, as we seem to be awfully good at importing crime.
Or this lot http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11766210
160 years in prison for the twenty or so offenders but what the hell do we need to let this trash into the country for in the first place.
Corruption with the lobby groups (banks and real estate firms) calling the shots
Now the headlines are Auckland turning despite the fact that prices are up 13% from last year. Just more delay tactics.
Government has mastered the delay tactics ...
Delay with LINZ foreign student and temp visa buyer figures
Delay with debt to income rules
Delay with money laundering rules
Delay in and stamp duty on investors and non citizen buyers
Delay in empty homes tax
And in vancouver the opposite is happening
http://bc.ctvnews.ca/mobile/average-house-price-down-15-per-cent-or-mor…
Prices down 15% since the introduction ....
Auckland Council is useless and deserves most of the blame
That means construction of new homes in Auckland would need to have more than doubled within the space of a year, and then increased by around almost a third again over the following two years.
To put the staggering ineptitude of Auckland City Council into a relevant context. Auckland in 2013 was building homes at about 40% of the rate of Brisbane - under the same low interest, high real estate investment market Auckland City was utterly woeful.
"It doesn’t matter how many Special Housing Areas you create or planning rules you simplify, growth in construction on that scale is simply not possible in such a short timeframe.
So what you are saying is that Brisbane is impossible, because they created a construction rate increase between the GFC and 2013 that left Auckland for dead. It's not rocket science if Queenslanders can do it, but it well beyond the competency of Auckland Council.
It all comes back to Auckland City Council making land cost 3x as much in Auckland as it should do. We have the flat easily developable Clevedon Valley that we a forbidden from building on, but weird exburbs planned to develop in obscure places. It is a planning sh*tswarm, that stagger belief.
But don't worry someone will blame the immigrants.
Queensland has not had anywhere near the immigration of NZ,
time to get off the supply spin and look at the demand side as well
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Latestproducts/3412.0Main%20Fea…
Greater Brisbane has averaged 1.8% annual population growth since 2011 and is going to have a housing surplus in 2018.
We weren't building enough houses when we had low immigration and we aren't building enough now that we have high immigration. It has to be something independent of immigration.
Immigration is to blame. Therefore our government is to blame. If the government wants massive immigration it should
1. Explain why and then,
2. Find somewhere for them to live.
The current answer is a disaster. Anyone who thinks uncontrolled immigration is a sound policy needs to rethink. We are simply saving up massive problems for another day.
Vancouver is a right mess. Affordability at 20x median earnings twice as expensive as AKL. At least AKL property prices are now flattening out.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-13/home-prices-jump-a-q…
Just be careful when you refer to "Vancouver". Unlike Auckland which is all in one local authority, in metro Vancouver there are 23. So it is easy to find distorted averages by being quite selective.
That Bloomberg story did not make it clear. But it is likely they are only referring to the 24% of the metro area.
Here is a list of those 23.
| Local Authority | Type | Population |
| Anmore | Village | 2,092 |
| Belcarra | Village | 644 |
| Bowen Island | Island Municipality | 3,402 |
| Burnaby | City | 223,218 |
| Coquitlam | City | 126,456 |
| Delta | District Municipality | 99,863 |
| Langley | City | 25,081 |
| Langley | District Municipality | 104,177 |
| Lions Bay | Village | 1,318 |
| Maple Ridge | City | 76,052 |
| New Westminster | City | 65,976 |
| North Vancouver | City | 48,196 |
| North Vancouver | District Municipality | 84,412 |
| Pitt Meadows | City | 17,736 |
| Port Coquitlam | City | 56,342 |
| Port Moody | City | 32,975 |
| Richmond | City | 190,473 |
| Surrey | City | 468,251 |
| Tsawwassen First Nation | Treaty First Nation | 720 |
| Vancouver | City | 603,502 |
| West Vancouver | District Municipality | 42,694 |
| White Rock | City | 19,339 |
| Electoral Area A | Unincorporated Area | 13,035 |
| Metro Vancouver | Regional District | 2,476,145 |
Not to belabour the point, but we weren't building enough homes in 2011 - 2013 when we had low immigration and we aren't building enough homes now in 2014 - 2016 when we have high immigration. Moving back to having low immigration conditions of 2012 will not solve the housing crisis.
What a load of rubbish. Many rapidly growing economies have negative or very low population growth rate. More generally analysing most countries in the world reveals that there is only a very minor correlation between population growth rate and the economic growth rate/capita, and that relationship is negative, i.e. the faster the population grows the slower the wealth increase per capita.
No one is against immigration but anything in extreme is bad. Balance has to be maintained, where national government has failed miserably and it is this type of policy that gives rise to social tension - which is not too far away, if it continues the way it is but luckily election approaching soon.
It's both reckless and incompetent. I've been telling you that for more than 3 years Mr Chaston.
Now the property market is about to collapse, causing a colossal downturn, which will drive recent migrants away and push NZ into another bust cycle.
We need to outgrow the boom/bust mentality and stop reliance on unsustainable migration.
Key could see the writing on the wall and jumped ship before he had to take any blame. Now hapless Bill is left to pick up the pieces...
That boom bust cycle started in the 1800's.
Interesting you are supporting severe correction. I must admit you have good form at calling the cycles, I am impressed. Frightening if it starts falling and we have a liquidity crisis too, then the bottom could be hard to call. I really doubted your call on AKL house prices doubling but you nailed it. Hope all is well.
If immigration and housing is the only thing keeping the economy going then Treasury foresee a bust. "By 2021, annual net immigration is assumed to fall to 20,000 and is on a
path to reach Statistics New Zealand’s long-run median population migration
assumption of 15,000 in 2022."
Interesting thing from Greg's chart that Auckland can't maintain the population growth rate without immigration.
In 2015, there were over 110,000 tertiary international students in NZ. This is in addition to the standard immigration count.
https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/__data/assets/excel_doc/0019/147133…
Many of these will stay for 1 to 3 years for study, then gain an additional 12 months work visa on the basis of their completed qualification.
Then if they secure a permanent job in their field / qual then they can achieve permanent residency.
So there is a parallel stream of 110,000 student-based immigrants in addition to the 75,000 standard immigrants.
They are able to purchase property while students & are not counted as foreign purchasers.
The Govt goal for this stream is to help fund universities etc, and to open up a parallel immigration portal.
Yeah, I was shorthanding it a little. The places need to be strictly limited to legit programmes in legit universities, as was probably the original intention when all this started 20-some years ago. Allowing all these dodgy private institutions is just a festering pit of corruption, and it's doing New Zealand no good at all.
But even then, the whole scheme was riddled with crime. It opened up the market for fake degrees from New Zealand universities, because it was suddenly possible for foreigners to claim degrees from local universities with a reasonable level of plausibility. I remember a bunch of cases in the late 90s where degree certificates were being forged on a large scale.
Under the Immigration law/policy, any international student who completes a level 7 diploma or degree or above, or a 2 year minimum level 6 qualification is eligible for a further 12 month work visa, & potentially a further work visa & then PR. This is the main motivation and prime goal of many of these students.
.
My point was that the 110,000 is in addition to the 73,000 direct immigrants - so NZ has close to 200,000 immigrants when including tertiary, secondary, & work, & working holiday visas etc - all the various kinds.
The problems and solutions were evident 10 years ago.
A major part of the problem was the old councils between 2000 and 2010 doing jack about zoning much more land for higher density housing.
Then, the govt not promoting enough investment into construction sector apprenticeships.
And throw in, for good measure, too much immigration and not enough controls on foreign buyers and nz based investors...
Equals housing crisis
So lets say you are looking after a friends house. When your friend has left, you.... sell everything you can, then invite all the people you can on facebook over for a party (free beer, healthcare) Then leave the door open and run away to another little pacific island. Reckless, incompetent sure.. But a deliberate economic policy.
Wow and yay! Interest.co is really socking it to the government today. Billy boy needs to realize he no longer has the mandate to flood NZ with people.
He doesn't have the mandate to keep wages in the poverty zone.
He doesn't have the mandate to share our infrastructure with all and sundry.
He doesn't have the mandate to dish out super to immigrants who haven't contributed their fair share.
He doesn't have the mandate to give free health care to people who haven't contributed their fair share.
He doesn't have the mandate to sell our housing, infrastructure, businesses and /or land to people all over the planet.
He doesn't have the mandate to cause the price of our housing to be out of reach to working class NZ'ers.
He doesn't even have our mandate to govern. EARLY ELECTION PLEASE.
As with all these articles there is a grain of truth in the story but not the whole issue. Sure agree the student arrivals are a major both initially and when they convert to permanent resident. Obviously they all need to find somewhere to live be it Auckland or in my case Nelson. However where is the linkage between houses being built and the rentals the students are moving into. Obviously the students are not buying properties to live in.We need some good articles on the connection between rental properties and the new builds. Sure there are some apartments being built but the bulk of the new homes are not for rental investments. Certainly not the ones on greenfield developments.
The researchers and writers need to see what the tenants are asking for and how landlords are responding to the demand.
If you think about it hard enough, there are a lot of factors to this. We need to make it clear to the government that something needs to be done. Unfortunately it is a cycle. We have way more migrants adding to the population growth. However we need people because whether you like it or not a lot of the locals are lazy and can't be bothered going to work let alone getting a proper work. So I'd say;
- immigration, especially those weak 'pathway to residences' visas ie. Student visas have to be radically controlled. This will definitely have a big impact on population. The government should have seriously taken into consideration the available resources before opening the gates.
- Drastic overhaul of the benefit system. This system has been taken advantaged at by lazy people who prefer to live out of the taxpayers money and just sit on their behind and then commit crimes if they get bored or want more money. Or they will just have more babies. They even get NZ Housing subsidies / benefits as well. This is supposed to be provided to 'those in need'. But in reality a lot of the houses have been trashed, used as hangouts for gangs and eventually become meth contaminated where the government or the landlords have to spend more money to fix it.
This is happening while the average working class are working their arse off and having a hard time making ends meet. Some of those in benefits even have nice cars and things than those who are working hard. And of course the arrogance of those people are way up there too.
As a taxpayer for so many years, this annoys me to hell.
This government is a bunch of idiots - low quality immigration is just dumb way to have some growth in govt tax take but it doesn't take into account all the costs AKL has to bear which the government doesn't fund anyway. Please vote National out at the next election - lazy, incompetent, no ideas, bunch of yesmen
Where did all the money go from this entitlement....Hawaii. Could have built an apartment block....some people will never learn....They may need a lot more education... They may need to learn the fund-a-mentals of stupidity, is a future taxpayers....responsibility. And that compounding stupidity is a drain on all society.
Who Audits these ?. Perhaps they need schooling themselves?.
A complete waste, is educating idiots to become bigger idiots.
Just one aspect of an education system, gone totally insane.
I suppose they will make great politicians though. And an economist..or two.
http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/audit-questions-dollar700k-schoo…
do these people in government not understand - over population is 1 of the worlds major problems - in Auckland we have beaches we no longer can swim at, roads we cannot travel anywhere fast on, houses our young people cannot afford yet they still are intent on bringing more people into nz and building more and more houses with no infrastructure in place or good rail systems - these immigrants are here for a good time not a long time and are wrecking our culture -government only looks at short term fixes it seems and forget long term costs- what part of this means we are better off?? we cannot get to sports events or trainings now and we are a sporting nation! thanks John Key (not) but at least we saved our great NZ Flag- grow up nz ! think and use common sense rather than follow
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