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Eyes on Xi-Trump talks; US data suggests stagflation; California declares El Niño emergency; Canada sees growth halving; copper in new push higher; UST 10yr at 4.96%; gold and oil ease; NZ$1 = 57.2 USc; TWI-5 = 60.7

Economy / news
Eyes on Xi-Trump talks; US data suggests stagflation; California declares El Niño emergency; Canada sees growth halving; copper in new push higher; UST 10yr at 4.96%; gold and oil ease; NZ$1 = 57.2 USc; TWI-5 = 60.7
breakfast

Here's our summary of key economic events overnight that affect New Zealand, with news more policymakers are bracing for dealing with stagflation.

But first, in the leadup to the Xi-Trump talks in Washington, there is a focus on AI and its risks. And there is some pre-celebration from both sides of how good it is going to be. We recently noted that the May Beijing version of these talks has seen the announced 200 plane order for Boeing apparently die. It also seems that the May deal to buy US grains has never materialised either. So you should be sceptical of any current claims about the Washington DC meeting outcomes.

The Chicago Fed's National Activity Index dipped in August from July, suggesting US economic growth is no longer rising. In four of the last six updates, this measure has decreased. New orders are no longer rising in this data, production is contracting.

So that points to increasing stagflation.

Meanwhile Chicago Fed President Austan Goolsbee warned that bringing inflation back down to the 2% target may not be painless and could require pushing employment below target. "This is exactly the painful trade-off between employment and inflation that stagflationary shocks always impose on a central bank. Unfortunately, in environments like that, the only way back is the hard way."

And staying in the US, California has declared a state of emergency as a strengthening El Niño raises the threat of damaging storms, widespread flooding and mudslides across the state for their upcoming autumn and winter.

In Canada, their central bank boss has also been speaking, and warning that their trade difficulties with the US could cut Canadian growth in half to below +1%. It is actually oddly impressive that a dispute this large with an economic adversary as big as it gets can be navigated with any expansion.

In Australia, Reserve Bank Assistant Governor Sarah Hunter was on a Nine Network podcast this morning and emphasised that the RBA is worried about inflation and fighting that threat is where their energies currently are focused.

The copper price is making another push up towards its record high (reached on September 9), this time driven by growing logistics issues.

The UST 10yr yield is now just on 4.96%, down -4 bps from yesterday. The 30 year yield is at 5.31%, down -2 bps. The key 2-10 yield curve is now at +22 bps (down -3 bps). Their 1-5 curve is now at +43 bps (unchanged) and the 3 mth-10yr curve is at +109 bps (down -1 bp). The China 10 year bond rate is back down -4 bps at 1.68%. The Japanese 10 year bond yield is now at 2.98%, unchanged. The Australian 10 year bond yield starts today at 5.27%, unchanged. The NZ Government 10 year bond rate is now at 4.98%, up +1 bp.

Wall Street has started the week firmer with the S&P500 up +1.6% and the Nasdaq up +2.3%. Overnight European markets were all up too, between London's +0.7% and Frankfurt's +1.1%. Tokyo was on holiday and is so again today. Hong Kong ended its Monday up +1.2% while Shanghai was up +1.0%. Singapore rose +0.3%. The ASX200 ended its Monday session unchanged. The NZX50 rose +0.6%.

The price of gold is at US$4345/oz, and down -US$38 from yesterday. Silver is at just over US$66/oz and little-changed.

Oil prices have fallen -US$4.50 to at just on US$95.50/bbl in the US, while the international Brent price is down -US$4 to US$100/bbl. There is a bit of hopium involved here as traders watch diplomatic efforts to end the US-Iran war and watch for signs of oil cargo movements. But they are not significant, yet anyway. Hormuz transits are showing some signs of traffic today with eight ships exiting over the past 24 hours, two tankers escorted (0 dark with transponders off) and six entering for new loads (0 dark). The Red Sea activity is seeing a pickup in outbound traffic at the Yemen chokepoint but no pickup in inbound movements.

The Kiwi dollar is unchanged from yesterday, still at 57.2 USc. Against the Aussie we are holding at 80.3 AUc. Against the euro we are up +10 bps at just under 49.9 euro cents. That all means our TWI-5 starts today at just under 60.7 and little-changed.

The bitcoin price starts today at US$88,791 and up a sharp +5.8% from yesterday. (And we should note that it has risen back to NZ$150,000 for the first time since late January.) Volatility over the past 24 hours has been high at just over +/-3.4%.

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26 Comments

One of the best journalistic questions to ask, is: Why? 

And the answer isn't: Trump. 

Here's a journo who asked the question:

Radical Simplicity: The Opportunities of a World in Collapse - The Great Simplification

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Lack of education? 

I've had quite a few friends go to China and say how technologically advanced they are compared to us, and I imagine America is another step back from us. The West is no longer the best, we got lazy and banked on house prices.

But I'm sure you will say it's because of a lack of energy, even though fuel was fairly cheap and plentiful before Trump was elected. 

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Lack of energy? Well I can assure you that applies to age,  not only fuel. Also age does drastically  compound durability and longevity of the greatest of human endeavours to the point of being finite. For instance once Kublai Khan  mopped up the remainder of China the Yuan dynasty come empire reached from there as far as the Carpathian  Mountains in Ukraine. Now China might be rebuilding but it’s taken quite a while. Conversely so the arrival of the USA as a global superpower post WW1 is barely 100 years old and already is looking de-energised for want of a better word, politically industrially, socially, militarily,diplomatically to mention a few aspects. The nation looks as if it has outgrown itself, which is hardly unique historically either. Perhaps  that rapid decline illustrates just how rapidly the tempo of world affairs, activities and competition has escalated. Just musing, it’s raining here.

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Yours is the better reply - for one obvious reason; you don't conflate things with keystroke-issued proxy. 

All hegemonic irruptions have subsided through a two-claw pincer movement; resource depletion (usually energy quality vs distance) and entropy. Triage happens first, gathering momentum. Then it all goes silent, often rapidly. Then there is a much reduced cohort grazing living a much reduced-throughput lifestyle. 

But that has never been run globally, and never @ 8 billion, and never in a this-much-depleted world. Made worse by the fierce myopic fixation on $$$$$$$$ - of which there already too many, by far. 

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DO THE DAILY NUMBERS HIDE THE BIGGER STORY?

I increasingly wonder whether the way we report sovereign bond markets is obscuring the far more important story developing underneath them.

Take the daily bond snapshot this morning. The US 10-year is down 4 basis points, the 30-year down 2, China down 4, Japan unchanged, Australia unchanged and New Zealand up one - read that in isolation and everything sounds remarkably normal.

But is that really the appropriate lens through which to view what is happening - the US 10-year is still sitting around 4.96% and the 30-year around 5.31%. Meanwhile, serious stresses have been appearing elsewhere across the developed sovereign complex - long UK gilt yields have been under considerable pressure - German Bund yields have moved to levels not seen for many years - France is dealing with deteriorating fiscal arithmetic and widening spreads over Germany, and Italy continues carrying an enormous public-debt burden.

None of that proves that a systemic sovereign-debt crisis is imminent. But neither does yesterday's 4-basis-point fall in the Treasury yield tell us very much about the structural health of the system.

I believe that conventional reporting increasingly misses the forest for the trees - IOWs the structural health of the system - surely a very real question is what size of productive economic base ultimately stands underneath the mountain of financial claims being accumulated above it?

THE DENOMINATOR PROBLEM

This is where my use of Productive GDP, or PGDP, differs fundamentally from conventional GDP. Headline GDP counts enormous quantities of economic activity generated within an increasingly financialised economy. Financial intermediation, property-related activity, government expenditure, various professional services and other components all contribute to measured GDP.

That is perfectly legitimate according to national-accounting conventions. But it doesn't necessarily follow that every dollar counted equally represents productive capacity capable of supporting an ever-expanding stock of debt.

A PGDP framework attempts to strip the problem back to something much more fundamental - how much genuinely productive output does an economy generate from which its accumulated financial claims can ultimately be serviced?

WHEN GDP BECOMES THE ILLUSION

That distinction becomes increasingly important as an economy financialises. Imagine an economy in which debt, asset prices, financial turnover and government expenditure all grow rapidly. 

Measured GDP can continue expanding because much of the activity surrounding those financial claims is itself incorporated into GDP. The financial superstructure can therefore become larger while simultaneously making the statistical economy appear larger.

But the underlying productive economy may not be expanding remotely as quickly - and therein lies the potential illusion. We continually quote debt-to-GDP ratios as though the denominator was automatically an appropriate measure of the economic capacity supporting the numerator.

Its not when the composition of GDP is progressively shifting away from productive wealth creation and towards activity generated by financialisation, asset inflation, government deficits and servicing the financial architecture itself, then headline GDP can substantially disguise deterioration in the relationship that really matters - productive capacity relative to accumulated financial claims.

This is why I find the contrast between the US and China particularly interesting.

China's 10-year government bond is around 1.68%, while the US 10-year is approaching 5%. Whatever one's views about either political or economic system, that enormous difference deserves considerably more examination than it usually receives.

PGDP estimates suggest that China's genuinely productive economy represents a much larger proportion of its headline economy than America's does. Conversely, a very large component of American GDP now sits inside consumption, finance, property, healthcare administration, government expenditure and other service activity rather than the industrial and productive base from which external obligations ultimately have to be met.

That doesn't mean those services have no economic value. Obviously many do - it means that $1 of headline GDP is not necessarily equivalent to $1 of productive debt-servicing capacity.

Once that distinction is recognised, some apparently comfortable debt-to-GDP ratios begin looking considerably less so, and the problem becomes alarmingly self-reinforcing when bond yields rise.

WHO BUYS THE NEXT TRILLION?

A sovereign refinancing enormous quantities of debt at 5% faces a very different arithmetic from one refinancing at 2%. Higher interest expenditure increases fiscal deficits - larger deficits require additional issuance - additional issuance must find marginal buyers - and increasingly price-sensitive buyers may demand still higher yields to absorb that supply.

That is why today's marginal Treasury buyer is so vital - the important question isn't merely whether the latest auction was "covered". At some price almost anything can find a buyer. The question is what yield is increasingly required to induce that buyer to absorb the next trillion dollars of issuance?

And this isn't some obscure heterodox concern anymore - even dah IMF itself has been warning about the interaction between high sovereign indebtedness, refinancing requirements, increasingly price-sensitive investors, leveraged non-bank financial institutions, liquidity stresses and forced selling.

Those are precisely the mechanisms through which something that initially looks manageable can become a systemic shambles.

Britain has already provided an excellent demonstration of the underlying plumbing. The Bank of England's decision to stop actively selling long-dated gilts through its QT program doesn't mean Britain is insolvent, but it does tell us that the long end of the sovereign curve matters enormously when leverage, and pension-system structures are sitting on top of it.

France, Italy and Germany deserve watching for different reasons, as does Japan.

Perhaps the most sobering aspect is just how widespread this problem is becoming. Look across the world's largest advanced economies and variations of the same sovereign-bond challenge keep appearing — the United States, Japan, Germany, Britain, France, Italy and Canada all have to compete for increasingly price-sensitive capital, while governments continue issuing enormous quantities of debt and central banks are no longer the enormous price-insensitive marginal buyers they became during the QE era.

The circumstances obviously differ enormously from country to country, but the underlying question is remarkably similar: who buys the next bond, and at what yield? The IMF itself now warns that sovereign yields have become increasingly sensitive on auction days even though conventional measures such as bid-to-cover ratios can continue looking perfectly respectable. In other words, the bonds are still finding buyers — but increasingly at the price demanded by the buyer rather than the price preferred by the sovereign.

Japan makes this even more interesting because rising JGB yields are beginning to make domestic bonds more attractive to Japanese investors, potentially reducing one of the world's historically important sources of demand for foreign sovereign debt. That illustrates why this cannot sensibly be analysed as a collection of isolated national bond markets. The marginal buyer disappearing from one market may simply be a marginal buyer who has found a better price somewhere else.

When so many of the world's largest sovereign borrowers are competing simultaneously for that increasingly price-sensitive pool of capital, surely the relevant story is no longer whether one country's 10-year yield happened to fall four basis points overnight. It is the growing competition for the marginal buyer across the entire global sovereign-debt complex.

And then sitting at the centre of the system is the United States, simultaneously carrying enormous federal debt, persistent fiscal deficits and a deeply negative net international investment position while remaining responsible for supplying much of the reserve asset upon which the existing international monetary architecture depends.

THE STRUCTURAL LOAD

Surely serious financial analysis should at least be examining the structural load - and to me, that is ultimately why I think PGDP matters. GDP tells us the measured monetary value of economic activity occurring inside an economy. PGDP asks a very different question - how much real productive capacity exists underneath the financial claims?

As global debt continues expanding, sovereign refinancing costs rise and Western economies become progressively more financialised, I suspect that distinction is going to become considerably more important, because ultimately debt isn't serviced by GDP statistics.

It is serviced by income generated from an economy capable of producing sufficient real goods, services, exports, tax revenues and savings to honour the claims written against it.

If the financial claims continue growing much faster than that underlying productive base, a 4-basis-point daily decline in the bond yield isn't necessarily good news - it may simply be noise obscuring the a very sobering trend.

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Good point thinking in PGDP (productive gdp) rather than the current gdp, which is more a measure of how much money is in circulation in an economy.

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I bet you are surprised V Putin won the Russian election with 100% of the vote? Who could've seen that coming? 355 seats for Putin United Russia and 95 seats for the other Putin parties. 

The ever popular Chechen warlord Ramzan Kadyrov didn't fare quite so well, he only managed 99.85% of the vote, which must have been a little disappointing. On the bright side he did improve on his 99.7% last election. In celebration, .15% of the Chechen population were taken out for a days target practice. 

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Palmtree, we were discussing PGDP, sovereign debt sustainability and the disappearing marginal buyer in global bond markets.

Your seething default response is... Vladimir Putin and a Chechen election.

I think I'll just leave that sitting there. It rather beautifully makes the point all by itself.

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Nah, nah, just drawing attention to the flip side of your narrative. West crashing, East, all sorted......The dictatorship, the one true answer to all that ails civilisation. 

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Just for the record, though, since you've spliced in this completely unrelated diversion...

Putin didn't receive 100% of anything - he wasn't even a candidate in this parliamentary election. United Russia received about 57.8% of the party-list vote, and won 355 of the 450 Duma seats.

None of your entirely predictable, and hysterical, Russophobic knee-jerk, has anything whatsoever to do with PGDP, sovereign debt sustainability or the disappearing marginal buyer in the global bond markets.

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What? You believe the Duma puppet council aren't moving their lips in concert with the mafia Don? Try to pay attention Colin? 

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Palmtree, since you decided to turn the discussion onto Russia and Putin, perhaps we should follow your argument to where it actually leads.

And we then discover, assuming we have half a brain between us, that the problem isn't whether anyone particularly likes Putin, Kadyrov, or the Russian political system. The problem is what happens when caricature substitutes for serious analysis of the security environment between nuclear-armed powers.

Your argument illustrates precisely the danger I have been talking about.

Once Russia has been constructed as the permanent, inherently expansionist enemy, virtually everything can be fitted into the narrative. Russian rearmament is "aggression" - NATO rearmament is "defense". Russian military exercises are threatening - NATO exercises are deterrence. Russian security warnings are propaganda - Western warnings are statesmanship. NATO can expand towards Russia's borders while insisting that Moscow has no legitimate reason even to perceive this as threatening.

And now listen to the rhetoric coming from Europe itself. Slovak Prime Minister Robert Fico has warned that some Western politicians appear increasingly willing to turn the Ukraine conflict into a direct NATO-Russia confrontation.

You don't have to agree with Fico to recognise the significance of the warning - this is the prime minister of a NATO member state saying it from inside the alliance.

Glenn Diesen makes an equally important point using the traditional framework through which states assess threats: capabilities and intentions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gl-NP3Kd24

If European governments are rapidly expanding military capabilities while simultaneously telling their populations that they must prepare for possible war with Russia, what exactly do you imagine Russian strategic planners are supposed to conclude?

And here is the truly frightening part.

Diesen's assessment is essentially that Europe increasingly sounds as though it is preparing itself psychologically and politically for confrontation while lacking the military-industrial capability to prosecute a prolonged conventional war against Russia without enormous costs.

That is an extraordinarily dangerous combination - escalatory intentions -or at least increasingly escalatory rhetoric - without corresponding capability - this is how security dilemmas become self-fulfilling.

You announce that Russia is preparing to attack you, so you rearm and move military infrastructure closer to Russia. Russia interprets that as preparation for conflict and responds by rearming further. You then point to Russia's response as proof that your original accusation was correct.

Around and around it goes until eventually somebody makes a catastrophic miscalculation - and this is why endlessly parroting the "Russia is the enemy" narrative matters. 

Political consent for permanent confrontation doesn't materialise from thin air. It is created by repeatedly reducing enormously complicated historical and geopolitical questions into goody and baddy scenarios, until diplomacy itself starts being portrayed as appeasement.

The greatest danger in inventing an enemy isn't merely that your description of him might be wrong - it is that eventually you begin behaving as though your description must be true - and in doing so help manufacture the very war you claimed you were trying to prevent.

So by all means let's discuss Russia, Palmtree - but let's discuss the consequences of the narrative as well as the caricature.

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"by all means let's discuss Russia"

 Unfortunately I don't have hours spare to write novel length treatises Colin.  Probably spent the best part of a decade sifting through scientific journals extracting the latest science so I could refute the BS claims by the fossil fuel astroturfing campaign.....and it changed nothing, except wasting the finite hours of my life arguing with morons with their own set of "alternative facts". 

So bullet points

"Once Russia has been constructed as the permanent, inherently expansionist enemy"

It clearly is and doesn't hide that fact! Simply from the horse.

Putin has said Russia's border "doesn't end anywhere"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38093468

"Russian rearmament is "aggression"" 

Yes it is. NATO spend was in a decline before Putins invasion.

https://icds.ee/en/nato-burden-sharing-and-defence-spending/

NATO rearmament is "defense"

Well it is in response to Kremlin expansionism.

"Russian security warnings are propaganda"

The Kremlin regime trying to protect their sphere of mafia infuence. The Warsaw pact and ex USSR states couldn't wait to leave Kremlin psychopathy. 

"Kremlin’s aggressive ideological policy is that reclaiming its “historical space” is a sufficient motive for expansionist actions."

https://hagueresearch.org/can-russia-extend-its-influence-across-the-east/#:~:text=Initially%2C%20this%20influence%20is%20notably,extend%20far%20beyond%20these%20regions.

"Slovak Prime Minister Robert Fico has warned that some Western politicians appear increasingly willing to turn the Ukraine conflict into a direct NATO-Russia confrontation."

Fico, like Orban before him are corrupt pro Kremlin right wing extremists. To de-escalate Putin simply has to end his imperialist war.

"telling their populations that they must prepare for possible war with Russia, what exactly do you imagine Russian strategic planners are supposed to conclude?"

Russia is a sick country, run by violent lowlifes. War is the logic of Putin.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1412988400755455

 

 

 

 

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Palmtree, you've actually demonstrated my point rather more efficiently than I could have hoped.

Your very first piece of “evidence” is a perfect example.

“Putin has said Russia's border doesn't end anywhere.”

Your BBC story, of all the archetypal war-drum MSM outlets you could possibly have chosen, concerns Putin joking with a nine-year-old boy at a Russian Geographical Society awards ceremony in 2016 - and immediately after making the remark he explicitly said:

“IT was a joke.”

Yet somehow a joke to a child gets extracted from its context and recycled years later as “from the horse” evidence that Russia openly admits to limitless territorial expansion.

And this is precisely what I am talking about.

I am not going to be drawn into arguing every recycled Putin quote, every “Kremlin psychopathy” label, or every piece of Western war-drum rhetoric you can dredge up.

The much more important issue is what this relentless enemy-manufacturing does to public perceptions and ultimately to policy.

You begin with the conclusion that Russia is inherently expansionist and must therefore be confronted.

Then almost anything can be made to reinforce it.

A joke becomes evidence of territorial ambition. Russian rearmament becomes proof of aggression. NATO rearmament becomes purely defensive. Russian security concerns become propaganda. Western security concerns become unquestionably legitimate. Fico doesn't need answering because he can simply be dismissed as “pro-Kremlin”. And an entire country of more than 140 million people becomes, in your words, “a sick country, run by violent lowlifes.”

Do you genuinely not see the danger in this?

Europe contains political and military leaders increasingly talking about preparing for possible war with the world's largest nuclear-armed state. Robert Fico is warning from inside NATO about where this rhetoric could lead. Glenn Diesen is asking the elementary strategic question: what happens when intentions and capabilities are assessed from the other side?

And your response is essentially:

Russia bad.
Putin imperialist.
Fico Kremlin stooge.
Therefore NATO defensive.

That isn't an answer to the security dilemma. It is the security dilemma being demonstrated in real time.

And this is why the endless parroting of war narratives matters.

Wars between great powers don't begin only because somebody wakes up one morning and decides to invade somebody else. They can emerge after years of threat inflation, dehumanisation, reciprocal military escalation and the progressive elimination of diplomacy as a politically acceptable option.

Eventually populations become conditioned to regard confrontation as unavoidable because they have been told, endlessly, that the other side understands nothing except force, we've seen that movie before.

With nuclear-armed powers, we may not get to watch the sequel twice, and so no, I'm not particularly interested in another circular argument about whether Putin is sufficiently evil for your liking.

I'm interested in why supposedly rational people are so extraordinarily comfortable helping to construct the intellectual and political conditions in which a direct NATO-Russia war starts to sound normal.

And that will be my last word on this particular exchange.

There comes a point where endlessly debating people who have already accepted every element of the enemy narrative becomes completely pointless. 

If a joke to a nine-year-old can be presented as evidence of limitless Russian expansionism, dissenting NATO leaders can simply be dismissed as Kremlin stooges, and an entire nation can be reduced to “violent lowlifes”, there isn't much analytical ground left on which to have a serious discussion.

Anyone still swallowing this infantile war-drum propaganda whole, while refusing even to contemplate how their own side's behaviour looks from the other side of the nuclear divide, is frankly beyond my comprehension.

I've made my argument - quote all the MSM warmongering drivel you like - others can make up their own minds.

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Skip the joke - how about the speech comparing himself to Peter the Great in returning territory to Russia by invading their neighbour Ukraine:

"Peter the Great waged the Great Northern War for 21 years. It would seem that he was at war with Sweden, he took something from them. He did not take anything from them, he returned (what was Russia's)," Putin said after a visiting an exhibition dedicated to the tsar.

"Apparently, it also fell to us to return (what is Russia's) and strengthen (the country). And if we proceed from the fact that these basic values form the basis of our existence, we will certainly succeed in solving the tasks that we face."

I guess we misunderstood him back in 2022 and thought the main point of comparison was waging a war of aggression to seize territory that is "rightfully" Russian, but it is starting to look more like it's the 21 year duration of the war that is comparable. 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hailing-peter-great-putin-draws-pa…

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What puzzles me is the source of all of these funds. Sharemarkets are climbing all over the world, governments are all borrowing hand over fist, the AI data centre explosion is soaking up huge amounts of investment, even bitcoin is back on a bull run.

Pension funds are one obvious source, but where is the rest of all this cash coming from to buy all this debt?

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"...where is the rest of all this cash coming from to buy all this debt?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation

I assume you wern't being ironic

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Stocks had a great day on the surface. But something alarming occurred not seen since 1999

https://www.cnbc.com/2026/09/21/stocks-had-a-great-day-on-the-surface-b…

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"More (30) stocks fell to new 52-week lows on Monday than rose (7) to 52-week highs in the index at a time when the S&P500 is nearing new ATH."

Interesting!

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"Prior to that, the only other time in history this dynamic has played out was July 23, 1929,..."

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How long until the cookie crumbles. Too many around seem too confident in investing in stocks currently. I get the vibe of "things can't go wrong if you're in it for the long term" despite the glaringly obvious fact that there are only a few companies propping up the S&P500 and the P/E ratios are unheard of. Tick tock.

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Where else do you invest though? NZ property is cooked, NZ stock market is crap, AU stock market heading in the same direction. Leaves really only the US and Global investments to get a decent return

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Leaves really only the US and Global investments to get a decent return

But for how long is the question. The leverage now is greater than the dotcom bubble and the GFC, so we all know what will happen when the brown stuff hits the fan on the AI boom. Just like railroad, electricity, fibre optic cable, and all other monumental technological shifts, the infrastructure gets built and the mania keeps it going for longer than expected for expectations of returns, until the realisation comes that the expectation of returns far exceeded the real return and there is a subsequent crash. The Infrastructure remains and will be used, but not all companies will survive.

Where will your returns come from then, given the entire world will be seeking the same thing and be relatively highly exposed to AI given it's concentration in propping up the S&P500? Perhaps we all need consider that returns are never guaranteed, and that a return is an excess that can be spared by the company being invested in, and with the current energy and geopolitical situation (trade changing, countries divesting from US Treasury bonds as they see the writing on the wall), do we think there will be 1. Sufficient energy to warrant any excess compared to consumption pre-nordstream and Iran war, and 2./ Granted everyone will be seeking the same thing, even if there were returns to be had, would they be anywhere near the long term trend granted they will be all shared between everyone looking for the same returns?

There;s always opportunities of course, but food for thought. 

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Where else do you invest though?

Unlike corporate stocks which are generally limited to backing by real businesses, there are infinite buying opportunities in the crypospace

just this week we have:
CAP (CAP) down 32%
World Mobile Token Price (WMTX)  down 27%
IoTeX Price (IOTX) down 25%
Limitless Price (LMTS) down 12%

 

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'decent return'? 

Spare me. 

Who said money - a keystroked-into-existence digital debt proxy - always gave a 'return'? 

This is a finite planet. Degrowth was only a matter of time - doubling-times of 'returns' being what they are. 

Sheesh... 

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Unfortunately PDK the considered time frame is (very) short...and likely far too short.

Cassandra syndrome.

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