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The New Zealand Tax Podcast – taxing capital back on the agenda; should the NZ Super Fund be tax exempt; who is Inland Revenue sharing our data with; and a bad week in the European courts for Apple & Google

Public Policy / analysis
The New Zealand Tax Podcast – taxing capital back on the agenda; should the NZ Super Fund be tax exempt; who is Inland Revenue sharing our data with; and a bad week in the European courts for Apple & Google
Looking at tax from all angles


In the past few weeks, the question of taxing capital has reappeared on the agenda featuring across a number of news stories. It probably kicked off initially when Inland Revenue’s long term insights briefing consultation document raised the question of whether the tax base should be expanded to meet what is the anticipated growing fiscal costs of superannuation, health and climate change.

“New ways of generating revenue”

Then a couple of weeks back, the outgoing chief executive and Secretary to the Treasury, Caralee McLiesh, commented to the New Zealand Herald that New Zealand needs new ways of generating revenue and cutting expenditure. She suggested a capital gains tax and a more efficient superannuation scheme.

Labour leader Chris Hipkins has been in the news talking about the Labour Party's internal discussions around the question of taxing capital. And then at the start of the week, Bruce Plested billionaire co-founder of Mainfreight, raised the idea of wealth tax. Understandably he caveated it with a question around whether the funds raised would be spent wisely.

But the point is, across the whole spectrum the question of taxing capital is back on the agenda. It never actually goes away to be perfectly honest. Like spring it comes around at least once every year. Anyway, it's interesting to see this debate carried on. I think a driving factor is a growing recognition that the present tax base probably isn't sufficient to meet the coming demands of rising superannuation, rising health costs and climate change. Sure, managing government expenditure more efficiently will help, but it will only go so far.

The Treasury has talked about a structural deficit of 2% of GDP which is $8 billion. That's a fairly sizable sum, and with the best will in the world, cuts in government spending aren't going to fill that gap. So, a discussion has to be had on how this gap is to be filled.

Given we will need to find extra revenue, taxation of capital is the obvious point. We should be considering whether it's a wealth tax, land tax, capital gains tax or even restoration of estate and gift duties, which were once quite a substantial part of the New Zealand tax base. It could be a combination of all or some of those, but the debate isn't going away.

Time to make the New Zealand Superannuation Fund tax exempt?

Moving on, and talking about the rising cost of superannuation, the New Zealand Superannuation Fund (NZSF) was established more than 20 years ago by Michael Cullen, to help smooth the cost of superannuation. It has been an enormous success. The NZSF has now grown to well over $70 billion and along the way it has been paying tax.

This is quite unusual for sovereign wealth funds because most are tax exempt. New Zealand has two other sovereign wealth funds, ACC and the Reserve Bank of New Zealand, and neither of those are taxed. They have between them another $60 billion of assets. But when the NZSF was established back in 2003, the decision was taken that it would pay tax. Part of the reason for doing so was to provide a commercial incentive so the NZSF made decisions around investments on strong commercial grounds, rather than because of a tax-exempt status

But this has created a sort of slightly odd money-go-round - the government would contribute capital to it based on a formula, and then the NZSF would then pay part of that back in the form of tax. This is before its designated drawdown date, which is coming up towards the latter part of this decade, when it's expected that regular withdrawals will be made to start funding superannuation.

For the period to June 2024, the Super Fund received contributions of roughly $1.6 billion overall and paid nearly $1.5 billion in tax. It is by far and away the largest single taxpayer in the country, a reflection, by the way of our Foreign Investment Fund regime rules. Finance Minister Nicola Willis is now seeking advice as to whether in fact it should become tax exempt, on the basis now that its tax bill is beginning to outgrow crown contributions.  

Now that the Government has contributed $16.9 billion after accounting for $9.6 billion in tax paid since the fund was set up, the Finance Minister will be thinking whether it’s now time the Government can wind back the contribution.  Ultimately, this should have the same effect as also removing its taxable status. We shall see how this develops, but it's interesting to see the discussions in this space, which are also a by-product of the question of how do we fund superannuation?

Inland Revenue under fire

Moving on, Inland Revenue is in a little bit of hot water after it emerged that it's giving hundreds of thousands of taxpayers’ details to social media platforms as part of its various marketing campaigns. These campaigns are intended to target taxpayers who might owe taxes.

Unpaid student loans are one particular area that that pops up here. The controversy revolves around the anonymisation tool which is used to ensure that whatever information the social media companies get, the details are minimised as far as possible to protect the privacy of the taxpayers involved.

The question has been raised as to whether that tool is sufficient.

The horns of a dilemma

There are two issues here. One is the technical question about how effective is the anonymisation tool. But the bigger question is whether Inland Revenue should be doing that. It faces a problem that if it wants to reach out to the general public - or certain sectors of the public - to remind them about their tax obligations. The best outreach method is through social media platforms. Inland Revenue is on the horns of a dilemma.

I will say this that in my 20-30 years’ experience watching and working with Inland Revenue, it has an exemplary record around disclosure of private details. It has strong processes in place, and I cannot recall over that time a data breach scenario similar to those we've seen with both ACC and MSD where private data of taxpayers has been emailed to persons outside the agency.

Notwithstanding Inland Revenue’s record, the practice seems questionable because of the fact that social media, sites are constantly under attack from hackers. Supplying private information to social media companies, no matter how laudable the intentions, puts that data at risk. It would be interesting to hear from the Privacy Commissioner on this.

Then there is the huge irony that these social media companies are amongst the most aggressive exponents of tax planning in in the world. For the year ended 31st December 2023 Facebook New Zealand, for example, reported taxable income of $9.1 million, but we know from its accounts that it paid over $157 million offshore to related entities. And Google's numbers are even bigger. The extent of the advertising now going offshore has absolutely gutted local media and the implications of this loss of revenue for our media landscape are still being worked through.

Inland Revenue has to work through the dilemma as to how far it should go with providing information to social media companies. Ideally, you'd say it should not. But if you want to reach out to taxpayers about their obligations, you have to go where you might find those taxpayers. And at the moment that's the social media companies.

Apple and Google lose bigly in Europe

Speaking of the big tech companies, over in Europe, Google and Apple had a week to forget. The European Union's top court the Supreme Court of the European Court of Justice (the ECJ) ruled that Google must pay a €2.4 billion fine for abusing its market dominance of its shopping comparison service. This fine had been levied by the European Commission in 2017, and Google has been fighting it since then but has now lost in the ECJ, the highest court in Europe.

But that news was overshadowed by a major tax decision by the ECJ the same day, ordering Apple to pay Ireland €13 billion. That's an eye watering $23.3 billion the equivalent of just over 12. 5% of Ireland's total tax revenue for 2023.

What's particularly interesting about this case is that Ireland was also a defendant alongside Apple. Ireland had been accused by the European Commission of having given Apple illegal tax advantages in the form of state support. The European Commission ruled the state support was illegal in 2016. Apple appealed and won in the lower court of the ECJ in 2020. But now the ECJ’s Supreme Court Justice has ruled that there was illegal state support which must be repaid.

A major transfer pricing decision

This is going to be a key transfer pricing case which will be analysed for many years to come because it revolves around the way profits generated by two Apple subsidiaries based in Ireland were treated for tax purposes. The ECJ ruled these arrangements were illegal because only Apple was able to benefit from them. Other companies based in Ireland could not.

This is just the latest instalment of the general crackdown that Europe is going through right now about transfer pricing and other profit shifting mechanisms led by the European Commission. The decision is an enormously important case in the transfer pricing world.

It actually leaves Ireland in a little bit of an embarrassing case because, as I said, it's an enormous sum of money, so people will be naturally saying, well, what are we going to do with this? The Irish Treasury has warned against using this for anything other than perhaps a one-off major capital project or debt repayment.

But the Irish also appear to be quite concerned about how their low tax regime (they have a corporate tax rate of 12.5%) will be perceived by other companies who would like to invest in Ireland which has pursued a long-term policy of attracting investment. Its industrial strategy was shaped in the late 50s, but really only started to come to fruition once Ireland joined the European Economic Community in 1973.

I would be very interested to see how this massive decision plays out in other jurisdictions and what lessons are taken by transfer price practitioners.

GST and managed funds – round two?

Finally this week, Inland Revenue has been busy releasing a number of draft consultations on a range of subjects, including Commissioner of Inland Revenue’s search and information gathering powers, the income tax treatment of short stay accommodation, arrangements involving tax losses carried forward under the business continuity rules, and a big paper on the income tax company amalgamation rules.

However, the one that's got me a little bit intrigued because of its back story is a consultation on the GST treatment of fees paid in relation to managed funds. If you recall back in August 2022, the then Labour government introduced a tax bill which included a measure which would impose GST on management services supplied to managed funds.

According to the supporting Regulatory Impact Statement that measure was to tidy up an anomaly that had been identified by a GST issues paper released by Inland Revenue In February 2020, just before COVID arrived.  It was projected to bring in an estimated $225 million a year starting from 1 April 2026.

A furore erupted after the same regulatory impact statement noted that was according to modelling by the Financial Markets Authority, the impact of imposing GST on management fees would mean that the amount available for KiwiSaver investors would be reduced by an estimated $103 billion by 2070. For context, it's worth pointing out that the KiwiSaver funds were projected to be valued at nearly $2.2 trillion. In an unprecedented move, Labour backed down and withdrew the bill within 24 hours.

Against that background, it’s interesting to see Inland Revenue’s final consultation on the same topic. And this is where I'm intrigued to know a little bit more about what's changed.  Basically, it seems that Inland Revenue is going back to a default position where manager fees are treated as exempt, but investment manager fees become subject to 15%. The proposal in 2022 was all fees become subject to GST at 15%.

An intriguing counter-factual

What intrigues me is that the 2022 Regulatory Impact Statement noted as the counterfactual that this would probably result in something like an overall increase in GST collectible of approximately $135 million per annum from 1 April 2026 onwards. That’s not an insignificant sum of money.

Although Inland Revenue's job is to provide interpretation and guidance, my thoughts on this are if this is a sum that's going to potentially raise $135 million dollars of tax annually, maybe that's something that Parliament should legislate.

There is also a subsidiary issue here which is a long-standing issue in our tax system at the moment. It is surprising, given that this was a controversial point, that this issue had not reached the courts, or that no one has taken a test case.

So, although Inland Revenue is doing its job, given the sums apparently involved I think that is something that should be put into legislation and go through the Select Committee process. But for the moment though, Inland Revenue is consulting on the issue until 25th October. As always, we will bring you any news and developments as they emerge.

And on that note, that's all for this week. I’m Terry Baucher and you can find this podcast on my website www.baucher.tax or wherever you get your podcasts.  Thank you for listening and please send me your feedback and tell your friends and clients. Until next time, kia pai to rā. Have a great day.

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50 Comments

Just drop the whole notion as far too complicated, with little return and maximum aggravation. 
Let Labour promote it as their tax plan thus ensuring they will never be in Government ever again .

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21

Hear hear. Just don’t say it too loud. They like to make up braindead ideas on their own.

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7

A wealth tax with the very low threshold as proposed by the Greens (including the family home) would have the same result as in New York and California, where tens of thousands of those who paid the most in income taxes have left, or are leaving, those states.  Result: a severe shortage of tax revenue to fund welfare payments.  The Left simply does not get it, but it is no wonder that most OECD countries that had a wealth tax have gotten rid of it.

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8

Would you rather tax the paye worker than the land bankers who have millions invested in land surrounding our major cities and paying nothing but rates - just waiting for the next tax free windfall as city boundaries expand?

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5

False equivalence straw man.

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Meaningless and unhelpful response, including an attempt to insult - you are are the wrong site. Interest.co is for constructive discussion.

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I agree that the Greens are out of control with that suggestion. But you're conflating income and wealth. They aren't the same thing.

My understanding is that OECD countries relinquished the wealth taxes in 80s (or thereabouts) because the prevailing wisdom at the time stated it would lead to more effective investment in productive capacity. 40 years later we have a society where an increasingly small group of very wealthy people control a disproportionate amount of the assets - and it provides them with enormous passive income that's largely untaxed. The middle class is disappearing and their incomes are collapsing in comparison to asset prices rises. Why are asset prices rising? Because the wealthy are using their passive incomes to buy the assets.

This cycle accelerates because, as we're now seeing, middle class and poor people are spending almost all of their money on housing and being alive. So the largest market has less spare cash each year. So how are you supposed to profitably invest in new stuff when there's a shrinking market? You don't, you just buy existing assets. 

Sensible people proposing a wealth tax are seeking to reverse this cycle - but the problem is that extremists jump on it and want to the family home. 

 

 

 

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You are just describing the scenario where two people can start with nothing and earn the same amounts. One person saves, the other spends. The saver ends up with assets and the spender ends up with nothing. The saver now has a passive income, the spender has nothing.  Now the spenders says it isn’t fair and wants to tax the savings of the saver and place higher taxation on any passive income. It’s pathetic. It is also simple math; and you cannot control it. The saver will always win; you cannot stop it. Get used to it. The only option you have is to save and manage finances properly.

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3

Then there are those who, instead of saving, borrow in order to invest. Are they not just as bad as those who spend all their income?

And, of course, if their income is from rent they expect a tax deduction on the interest that they have to pay.. I'm inclined to think thatt there should be a prtsumption that all investment has come from savings, and that therefor no deduction would be apptopriate.

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Deducting interest as a business expense is completely normal. Labour just got confused about this because they understand nothing about it. However, my example was not referring to this anyway. To me, spending all your cash, and then borrowing to invest is risky. My point was you can have vastly different outcomes from parties with the same income purely based on their behaviour.

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"Normal" is not the same thing as "appropriate". Grant  Robertson got it right when he made landlords' interest non deductible; though perhaps he didn't go far enough. A case could be made for making all interest non deductible.

 

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It is the investing that is risky, rather than the borrowing. The interest that you have to pay is part of the penalty for making a bad investment, but that is no reason for making it deductible.

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2 people do not start with nothing in today's society though do they? The math only works when you take distribution out of the equation. 

So if we're going to throw around naive oversimplifications then here's one for you: How would it work when you have one person with nothing and another that owns almost everything?

The obvious answer is that the guy with nothing spends his whole life working and the other collects a transfer payment and buys the remaining stuff.

What we have is a situation where a growing proportion of society starts with nothing and is forced to give most of their income to families that already own the assets. The tax system protects these people from true competition and they use the passive income to buy more assets off the disappearing middle class.

This is how capital appreciates at several times the rate of income growth. But your answer to that is to just "out save" it.

I'm glad it's that simple. I'll go inform all the struggling young families in this country that they need to "save" after rent/mortgage, power, food and transport. Oh wait 

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"Our Worst Ever Treasury Secretary, Caralee McLiesh, leaves office with a brain wave on how to improve prosperity in NZ: put up your taxes"

https://www.downtoearth.kiwi/post/our-worst-ever-treasury-secretary-aus… 

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8

"Inland Revenue giving thousands of taxpayers' details to social media platforms for ad campaigns"

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/527419/inland-revenue-giving-thousa… 

The Taxpayers union have now created a submission tool to request IRD to advise if they have provided your info to social media companies 

https://www.irdleak.nz/

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8

What's the bet that the Taxpayers Union are collecting and storing your data when you use that website?

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5

If you had actually looked at the link you would have seen this at the bottom ‍

"Unlike the IRD, we take your privacy seriously. Our privacy policy is available here. "

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11

"We do not sell, share, give or transfer your data to third parties. However, we may share information with trusted third parties when necessary to execute or optimise campaigns"

We do not share your data to third parties, except when we do share your data to third parties.. riiiiight

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4

The comment by IRD (in italics) does not say "your" information.

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0

Save yourself the time of the form. Here is the issue: the answer is yes, now what...

Don't pretend like the privacy act and commissioner has teeth. For most kiwis they are powerless with few options for justice. Even ACC doxes and shares private details on social media for twerks and giggles with random people and there is no justice or redress for those clients. Privacy breaches in government departments with not even any punishment or stern warnings & policy changes is common. What do you expect will happen in this case. Even an apology  is unlikely. Now your data is out there it is impossible to put back in the bottle.

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It is so not on the agenda

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2

Yep. When the current government don’t support it, the public don’t support it and we have an opposition barely able to tie their own shoelaces and out of government for the foreseeable future…then, yes, a loud minority that thinks they are entitled to the assets of others are only ones who think this is on the agenda.

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4

As opposed to the loud minority that thinks they're entitled to a 30% of my hard hard work , labour being by far my biggest asset ,and 15% of any of my consumer spend. 

What makes capital so sacrosanct over and above labour?

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What are you trying to do, encourage people to work? That goes against our endgame of a Landlord nation, renting our homes out to each other and living off capital gains. 

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Yes, let's all then act surprised when the stats suggest that we consume significantly more than we produce as a nation and are slipping in economic competitiveness currently sitting at #46 (Australia is at #7 for comparison).

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So what. Why do I care that you have a problem paying 30% of your money earned and 15% on top of that. Its the same for everyone. I pay 39% + 15%, so boohoo. I think the difference is I saved some of what I have, and I earn a return on that (no, not on housing). But, you had the opportunity and probably wasted it, I don't know. But, the capital I have is mine, and I don't intend to pay any tax on it (other than the returns). So, I guess you can go sing for it....or join the loud minority and yell. It won't do you any good. If you are that determined to get your hands on other peoples assets, maybe you could work a little longer, save a little harder and go buy some.

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I'm pretty sure redcows is a farmer, and if so I guarantee he/she is working bloody hard for his/her money already.

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Must be a hobby farm then.

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How about capital gains tax been ringfenced to infrastructure?

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Introduce a land tax .... plus a water tax ... a hefty sugar tax ... and for good measure , strip away charities from their tax free status ... 

... sorted ! ... You're welcome ...

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12

Then reduce income tax

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9

Yes .... our tax system is heavily weighted against workers & business  .... it needs to rebalance , towards resources ... but , not in any way that Labour or the Greens propose , they're nuts ... 

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"Charities" that trade in a commercial environment, have a organisational structure/pay scale to match, and pay less tax than their competition...this loop hole needs to be closed.

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6

Charity is big/huge business and should be taxed as such. Income from capital is also big business and should be taxed as such. Proportion of  personal and GST needs lowering to the same level.

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4

Gummy bear, you forgot to mention a special tax for German and Italian cars.

What about a chocolate tax, a coffee tax, and ink toner tax?

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... if you buy a German or Italian car you need therapy  , a support group & a case worker , not an extra tax ...

I would tax the sh*t out of vapes , tax them to extinction   ..

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3

Thank you, Terry for your ever excellent analysis.

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2

Crazy hat day it seems when it comes to tax exemptions.  "God Whispering" hat, "1/16th Maori" hat, "Mom & Pop investor" hat, "Oops I didn't intend on selling for capital gain" hat.  

Meanwhile salary earners lose nearly 30% of their income before it even enters their bank account and don't even enjoy any of the expense deductions others seem to enjoy when they momentarily put on their "I'm a business" hat.  

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6

Yes, but after 20-40 years of paying high income tax why would anyone vote for a wealth tax that only really benefits those who haven't earned an income yet?

How about introducing a one-way opt-in system that gives you lower income tax (say 5% discount off the standard rates at each band) in combination with some sort of capital tax (better CG or LV, because wealth tax is too costly and invasive for reporting). Then everyone can decide which system is best for them over their remaining lifetime.

 

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Because they don't want to pay another 20-40 years of high income taxes for ever diminishing public services?

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1

You mean another 0-20 years. And income tends to peak at around 50, so it's really only under 35s that would benefit. There's also no proposal to actually decrease income taxes - just add new wealth taxes on top.

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I don't support a wealth tax, but our lack of a comprehensive tax on  realised capital gains is bizarre. Tens of thousands of Kiwis are flocking to Australia which has such a tax and property taxes as well. The UK has the trifecta-CGT, Inheritance Tax and Stamp Duty.

I have only lived here for 21 years, but sadly, I have come to see that there are a large number of older people here who are short-sighted and very selfish. I accept that I too have benefitted greatly from the lack of any such tax, but I would support a CGT which would tax realised gains after allowing for inflation. I would also support a stamp duty on the sale of all property. 

 

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5

As a wage earner I pay effectively 27% in tax on all my earnings up front plus extra tax on any interest earnings etc. The government should allow wage earners to offset against any introduced wealth tax so that they are targeting the people who gain their wealth by means which get taxed at a far less percentage. Didn't labour conduct a study into the most weathly to figure out how to effectively tax them and take some pressure off the middle class. 

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1

Just allowing owner occupiers to deduct mortgage interest against their taxable income would be a start.  Would incentivize Governments to keep a lid on credit fueled property bubbles, due to the tax hit when rates rise.  

$500k @ 2.5% = $12.5k interest.  Rises to 7% = $35k interest.  A $22.5k hit to taxable income @ 33% = $7.5k.  How many FHB who bought in 2021 and are struggling with higher rates would say no to an extra $100+ per week?  At least the owner occupier's income is generally positively geared in the eyes of the taxman.  

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Just allowing owner occupiers to deduct mortgage interest against their taxable income would be a start

Would not property prices increase, to the detriment of future mortgagors. It would better to make landlords' interest payments non deductible.

 

 

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0

Comprehensive CGT + gift + inheritance tax

adjust income tax rates

Force local and central govt spending through cost benefit analysis.

done.

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2

Comprehensive CGT + gift + inheritance tax. Yeah Nah. Never going to happen.

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Yep then when the governments spending effectively on things that matter it will create some much needed churn in the economy. 

Community-led local govt budgeting has been implemented for decades around the world and it could be adopted here too. It's a possible solution to the issue of wasteful govt spending.

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0

If you're going to tax something, make sure those being taxed can't simply take it and more somewhere more favourable.

Assets like bonds, equities, and instruments like ETFs are all liquid and easy to move, and that taxpayer response has caused a lot of countries to roll back many of their wealth taxes to property only becasue of the net capital drain over tax taken.

So, that leaves property as the easy-to-assess asset class: niche areas like art and collectables are hell to tax as value is in the eye of the beholder and the disputes would likely cost more than anything collected.

Logically, a capital gains tax on all property but the family home would likely be the most politically palatable solution. The Australians did it - admittedly not that well - and the world did not end for the politicians concerned.

If accepted, that tax would have to be carefully designed and transparent, with protections against tax reduction strategies like the ability to transfer property 'losses' for use against personal income.

Because the public are now operating in a low trust environment with government, it would also need to be payable only upon the realisation of any gains rather than notional valuations that could be politicised and tweaked for expediency, and the citizens would need to be convinced the money would be used competently, effectively and efficiently. Those last are not strongly in evidence and could provide a huge barrier to acceptance and implementation.

Something to be considered might also be a penalty rate for properties left occupied for no good reason.

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