sign up log in
Want to go ad-free? Find out how, here.

Andrew Coleman says young Kiwis should be able to choose what they want from the pension scheme menu and the family should discuss whether there's a better way to split the bill

Public Policy / opinion
Andrew Coleman says young Kiwis should be able to choose what they want from the pension scheme menu and the family should discuss whether there's a better way to split the bill
ac

By Andrew Coleman*

Between 1975 and 1977, New Zealand scrapped the compulsory saving scheme that was introduced in August 1974 and adopted what is now the most unusual retirement income and tax policies in the OECD.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that this system has problems, particularly for people aged under 45. To mark the 50th anniversary of the compulsory saving scheme, this series of articles re-examines whether New Zealand’s retirement income policies could be modified or redesigned to better suit the 21 st century.

The focus of this and the last two articles is the economic costs of adopting a pay-as-you go pension scheme rather than a save-as-you-go scheme.

Making the transition: double pay or no pay?

An economy is called ‘dynamically efficient’ when the return to capital investments exceeds the growth rate of the economy, or “r > g”. Most modern industrial countries are dynamically efficient. When a country has a dynamically efficient economy, current and future generations of young people would be better off if they lived in a country with a pension scheme that was funded on a save-as-you-go basis rather than a pay-as-you-basis.

This is because the funds invested in a save-as-you-go pension scheme can be used to make high yielding investments, raising the returns from their contributions or allowing reductions in the taxes necessary to obtain any level of retirement incomes. In addition, the extra capital is likely to raise productivity and wages.

Many young New Zealanders may enjoy the vision of a highly paid, capital-rich economy with low taxes and high pensions. However, there is a catch. Once a country has adopted a pay-as-you-go pension scheme, it can’t be changed without making at least some people worse off than otherwise. This transition issue, identified by Peter Diamond and Edmund Phelps, is one of the key social and political obstacles confronting attempts to change retirement income systems.

In article 3, it was suggested that a save-as-you-go pension scheme can be likened to a bath-tub, with water flowing in from younger generations through a tax-tap, and flowing out to older generations through a pension plug-hole. The “water” in the tub is income generating capital investments. In contrast, a pay-as-you-go pension scheme is like a pipe, where nothing is accumulated. If a country wants to shift from a pay-as-you-go to a save-as-you-go pension system, it is necessary to fill the bath-tub during the transition and this either requires the inflow from the tax-tap to be turned up, or the outflow from the pension-plughole to be turned down, or both.

Once the bath-tub reaches its desired level, the flows can be changed so that each generation achieves its desired retirement income goals, whatever they may be. Until then, however, there need to be net inflows.

One strategy to build up the fund is to reduce outflows by immediately cutting pensions on current retirees. This is possible, but almost no countries have attempted to make the transition this way. Because most countries realise that it is difficult for many retired people to reduce their expenditures, any cuts are typically modest – or only imposed on wealthy or high income people through means tests.

Means-tests of one type or another were part of the New Zealand landscape between 1980 and 1997.

However, they have not been a feature of the New Zealand landscape since 1997, partly because they were considered unfair by many people. Means-tests lie at the heart of whether pensions are considered welfare or contributory based. In a means-tested welfare system, the people who have paid the most taxes on average receive the smallest pensions, sometimes nothing.

In a contributory scheme, the people who pay the most in social security taxes get the largest pensions because their taxes are treated as savings and there is widespread agreement that people who save more should keep most of their returns. New Zealand does not have a contributory government pension system, which perhaps explains why such a large fraction of the population thinks means-tests are a part of the solution to pension affordability.

When you frame a pension as a welfare-benefit rather than a return to saving, it becomes much easier to reduce the amount received by people who work past age 65, or people who are wealthy. Nonetheless, nationally representative surveys conducted in 2014 and 2022 indicated means-testing is very unpopular in New Zealand. Consequently, while means-test could be part of a transition scheme, politicians may find a less contentious option more appealing.

A second strategy to reduce the outflows is to gradually reduce future pension outflows. This could be done by gradually raising the age of eligibility, as many other countries have done, to 67 or 68 or even 70.

If done quickly, this could reduce the size of the outflows. Realistically, however, over the next few years it will only slow down the increase in the outflows because the population is living longer. Even if the age of eligibility is increased, it will still be necessary to keep taxes at current levels so that the difference can be used to increase the “bath-tub” fund.

An alternative approach requires increasing the amount going into the “bath-tub” fund by increasing taxes immediately, rather than waiting to increase them in the future. Since 2001 New Zealand has adopted this approach, but only on an “on-off” basis. When the New Zealand Superannuation Fund was set up in 2001, the government ran a budget surplus and some of the balance was added to the fund.

These contributions were stopped in 2009, and restarted in 2017. The Fund had accumulated more than $60 billion worth of assets by 2023. This is a good start, but it is only a start. Nonetheless, if New Zealanders start paying more taxes now and continue this over the next 20 or 30 years, and placed them in the Superannuation Fund, it would help make the transition and reduce how much taxes will have to be paid in the future.

There are various ways that taxes could be increased now, and placed in the New Zealand Superannuation Fund. One way would be to increase income taxes across the board. An alternative is to introduce a new social security tax on labour incomes, with the proceeds placed in the Fund. A different option would be to introduce a special retirement income tax on older people, say on those between age 50 and age 65, similar to the surcharge that exists in Switzerland.

People in this age group typically find it easier to save than younger people who have lower incomes and who often have children at home. A fourth option would be to introduce a tax on residential land. This should be an attractive option for many young people, for it is likely to reduce property prices while producing revenue that could prevent much steeper increases in taxes than are currently scheduled. It would reduce the distortionary nature of some of the taxes we currently use. The Stanford economist Antonio Rangel has looked at this option in detail.

Of course, young New Zealanders may wish to opt for a very different retirement system for themselves than the scheme adopted by older New Zealanders. This may require a very different transitional arrangement. Suppose young people wanted a contributory government pension scheme, or a compulsory saving scheme (one possibility is discussed later in this series).

They would need to contribute to their own saving accounts to provide their own future pensions while simultaneously needing to help pay for the pensions paid by older people. This is the infamous “double pay” problem – that if pensions aren’t cut, any transition from a pay-as-you-go to a save-as-you-go scheme requires the transition generation to pay the previous generation’s pensions and save for their own. Who wants to do that if they can go to Australia?

Yet this problem is not insurmountable. If people under 45 were making greater contributions to their own accounts, the country could decide to reduce the income taxes they pay but increase taxes on people over 45 to make up the difference. This would split the bill and allow New Zealanders to make the transition to a much more efficient and ultimately less costly save-as-you-go pension scheme.

It is sometimes said that a society should not bother to raise current taxes to make investments that reduce future taxes when there are urgent current expenditure needs such as education or healthcare. During an emergency such as a war or a huge natural disaster, this argument has some merit. But during ordinary times, it really conflates two distinct arguments.

The first is whether current taxes are sufficiently large to pay for ordinary government expenses.

The second is whether different generations should be expected to pay a disproportionately large share of the costs of programmes such as education or retirement income that have expenditures that occur at different stages of a person’s life than when they pay most of their taxes. Historically, most people in most countries have provided resources to future generations by funding expenditures such as education, technological investment or infrastructure.

However, in the last 50 years the flow of transfers has been steadily reversed in most OECD countries and now, with the exception of technological developments, increasingly involves a transfer from future generations to current generations.

Whether a society ultimately chooses to give to future generations or take from future generations is a matter of preferences and maybe ethics. Personally, I suspect that if older generations wish to take from future generations by dumping a disproportional share of the costs of current expenditure programmes upon them, it would at least be polite to ask for permission and maybe to say “thank you”.

The transition to a save-as-you-go system sounds difficult. Yet, if the transition to a more efficient system is not made, and pension entitlements are not cut, taxes will have to be increased on young people and future generations. If New Zealand doesn’t do something sooner, it will have to do something bigger at a later date.

If these discussions are not held now, and current pension entitlements maintained, young people will face higher and higher taxes. Young people might choose to pay higher taxes in the future – or they could choose to reduce the pensions older people receive, or leave to countries where the balance between taxes paid and benefits received is more favourable. None of these options sounds particularly appealing.

As always, political leadership will be needed to navigate this process. The best way to start is to acknowledge that different generations are being asked to pay very different amounts for the pensions they have received or will receive, and that change is possible. Of course, change does not have to occur simply because it is possible. But there is no reason why change cannot occur either, particularly if young people want a scheme that is better aligned to the way they want to live and older people don’t want their children to pay much higher taxes than they faced for a similar level of benefits.

It might be helpful to finish with an analogy. At the moment it is as if young Kiwis are being taken out to dinner by their parents, told what to eat, and left to pay for most of the meals. Perhaps it is time for change. Young Kiwis should get to choose what they want from the menu and the family should discuss whether there is a better way to split the bill. The answers to such a conversation may surprise us all.


*This series and an accompanying paper are based on work I started in 2020 with Jeanne-Marie Bonnet while we were both at the University of Otago. I am very grateful for her assistance and insights. All errors remain my own.

(This article is part 5 in the series. Part 1 is here, part 2 is here, part 3 is here, and part 4 is here).

**Andrew Coleman is a visiting professor at the Asia School of Business. This article is his personal view of retirement policy in New Zealand, based on academic study.

Coleman is on extended leave from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand, while working overseas. The views expressed in this article do not represent the RBNZ and are unrelated to work conducted at the Bank, which has no responsibility for retirement policy in New Zealand.

We welcome your comments below. If you are not already registered, please register to comment.

Remember we welcome robust, respectful and insightful debate. We don't welcome abusive or defamatory comments and will de-register those repeatedly making such comments. Our current comment policy is here.

48 Comments

Article says that many considered means tests as "unfair".

Probably true, but I think "unpopular" is a better word. And when a significant group of voters consider something unpopular the policy setting tends to be adjusted.

I think a discussion of "rent-seeking" could usefully be added to the article. 

Up
3

Andrew Coleman, you write, 'Suppose young people wanted a contributory government pension scheme, or a compulsory saving scheme.... If people under 45 were making greater contributions to their own accounts, the country could decide to reduce the income taxes they pay but increase taxes on people over 45 to make up the difference. This would split the bill and allow New Zealanders to make the transition to a much more efficient and ultimately less costly save-as-you-go pension scheme.'

The quartile of the population with lowest incomes and the least likely to be able to save also tend to be the least articulate and the least likely to vote on any change from our present universal social welfare benefit form of superannuation to one that depends on private savings.

The greatness of the pension scheme that Robert Muldoon gave us in 1977 is its equality: it goes to everyone who has lived in New Zealand for 10 years (now rising) whether they have worked and saved, or not. Its flaw is that it depends on current taxation and becomes increasingly unaffordable as the population ages. (I have read that in 25 years, Spain and Italy will have less than one tax-paying worker to support each citizen aged over 65.)

The real problem is how to fill the bathtub of the NZ Superannuation Fund to maintain the fair and equal disbursements of our present social welfare benefit pension for future generations without depending on increasing income tax. One way you suggest to do this is an annual tax on all land. Other options are a capital gains tax, and reintroducing inheritance tax and gift tax. All are poison to the wealthy, so these taxes need to be tailored so that only the richest quarter of the population will squawk loudly as their feathers are plucked. It can be done; we must not allow the outspoken rich to abort the NZ Super we have inherited from Robert Muldoon and turn us into a nation of KiwiSavers, with the inevitable gulf between those who are able to save and those who never could.

Up
3

The greatness of the pension scheme that Robert Muldoon gave us in 1977 is its equality: it goes to everyone who has lived in New Zealand for 10 years (now rising) whether they have worked and saved, or not.

It may be perceived as equal in terms of access, but it isn’t if we consider the fact that it is no longer sustainable and worked for the main generation that voted for it at an age of 31-51 in 1977. If it isn’t sustainable due to a population bulge of a certain couple of decades, then arguable it is no longer equal in terms of access. Or, say if the retirement age were to again be raise it would be less fair that the access of the previous generations.

Up
1

Thus: 'The real problem is how to fill the bathtub of the NZ Superannuation Fund to maintain the fair and equal disbursements of our present social welfare benefit pension for future generations without depending on increasing income tax. One way is an annual tax on all land. Other options are a capital gains tax, and reintroducing inheritance tax and gift tax. All are poison to the wealthy, so these taxes need to be tailored so that only the richest quarter of the population will squawk loudly as their feathers are plucked. It can be done; we must not allow the outspoken rich to abort the NZ Super we have inherited from Robert Muldoon and turn us into a nation of KiwiSavers.'

Up
2

Hello, thanks for your interest. 

A couple of points. First, it is possible to design a compulsory saving scheme in a manner that leaves people who have low life-time incomes  no worse off than the current system, while allowing others to be better off, through the use of top-ups for low-income people rather than means-tests for high-income people. That way the advantages of compound returns can be exploited when an economy is dynamically efficient ("r >g") . This may be an attractive option to many people - and for reasons i discuss next week this may also be attractive to  people with low incomes. 

Secondly, as you make clear, many people think a welfare based system has advantages in terms of equality. One question is whether many of these advantages (should New Zealanders want to preserve them)  can be obtained with fewer disadvantages than the current  pay-as-you-go system. Greater funding for the New Zealand Superannuation Fund is a means of keeping the payment delivery system ("everyone gets the same") while reducing the overall costs and the intergenerational redistribution inherent in the current system. These two aspects of a retirement system  - is it (i) welfare or contributory and (ii) pay-as-you-go or save-as-you-go can be considered separately. This article is really about the ways of making the transition form pay-as-you-go to save-as-you-go, not whether a welfare or contributory system is better. As Diamond and Phelps pointed out 10 years before Sir Robert Muldoon introduced National Superannuation, it is much easier to expand a pay-as-yo-go system than it is to contract it, for when you expand it (in a dynamically efficient economy) it represents a transfer to current generations from future generations, and when you contract it there is a transfer from the current generations to future generations. This reversal requires higher taxes or lower current or future pensions. I try to avoid questions of whether it should be done - that is a question for the political process - but it is reasonably clear that if it is not done current and future generations of young people will be paying much higher taxes than their forebears for their pensions. Not everyone thinks this is a good thing. As the article points out, there are many ways taxes could be increased or benefits cuts, that is a choice for the political process. Nonetheless, some taxes are better than others in terms of their efficiency, effectiveness and even fairness, and we need a discussion whether the current set of taxes are fit for purpose. Since they are different in so many ways from the taxes most OECD countries use, it is not obvious that we have a set of taxes that are particularly efficient. Indeed, it is reasonably straightforward to show why they are not very efficient or fair relative to the taxes used in other countries.

Up
3

Andrew Coleman, thanks for your comprehensive reply.

Up
1

.

Up
0

Personally, I suspect that if older generations wish to take from future generations by dumping a disproportionate share of the costs of current expenditure programmes upon them there will be blood in the streets. 

Up
1

Which is why we need to introduce capital gains tax on property sales, and reintroduce inheritance taxes, gift taxes, and annual land taxes, to pluck the feathers of the asset-rich now to fill the NZ Superannuation Fund bathtub to pay for future generations' pensions.

Up
4

why more taxes makes it fair?

Up
1

That only takes from the slightly rich, the really rich will avoid.

Up
1

Wonder if Labour will campaign on transition to a save-as-you-go system next election... yeah right.

Up
1

Again all that is being discussed is the token that is supposed to provide for the needs of the retired into the future...with a ratio of say 1 retired to 2 working tokens are not going to provide anything other than decoration.

The real resources will not be available no matter how many tokens (or keystrokes) you possess...that is the problem that needs addressing.

Up
2

Hello

I am afraid i might not have been clear enough here. So long as there is productive investment or a build up of foreign assets, which is being assumed, there should be additional future output. 

If the economy starts making the transition from a PAYGO pension scheme to a SAYGO pension scheme, there should be a reduction in total consumption levels and an an increase in total saving. In real terms, this could be because New Zealanders drink less wine, for example;  winemakers may export more wine which increases foreign assets (claims on foreign firms) , or they may employ fewer people, and the extra people get employed in other export or local investment businesses (but not businesses making consumption goods and services).   If investment in New Zealand increases the future economy will be more productive and so there will be an increase in future output even if there aren't more people. If investment in foreign assets occurs, there will be claims on foreign firms which can be used to import consumption goods in the future. Either way, when it is assumed saving increases and r >g there should be greater real resources available in the future. The additional "paper" claims such as money or investment certificates are claims to these real resources. d businesses investment more in equipment or make their processes more efficient. 

The key questions are (i) when does the decrease in consumption and the increase in saving occur; and (ii) is r>g, where r is the return to investments, not the interest rate. It can be difficult to answer the first question, because in the short or medium run people can reduce their other saving rather than their consumption when the transition starts. They can't do this forever, however - if taxes increase and they reduce their saving rather than their consumption ultimately they have less wealth and then some time int he future their consumption has to decrease relative to what it would have been. 

When New Zealand expanded the PAYGO system in 1977, there was a rapid drop in savings. This increased the current account deficit and meant New Zealanders had smaller claims on real resources in the future. As far as I am aware, consumption increases more  rapidly when a PAYGO system expands than it falls when a PAYGO system contracts. 

AC

 

Up
2

If we are to assume 'productive investment' and/or a build up of foreign assets it makes no difference how that occurs....it may occur if we incentivise private saving and it may not....it may all end up in a real estate or equities bubble.

If we assume a successful offshore asset accumulation that does nothing for the capacity (or capability) of the domestic economy in terms of output....it may however have considerable impact on price.

What is it that the 'retired' demand most from an economy?...the clue is in the descriptor, they are retired and therefore demand labour (by proxy), consequently we need a real increase in productivity, as measured in output (not tokens) AND a redirection of where those productivity gains (should they be achieved) are to be utilised....all labour intensive fields.

The markets have demonstrated a distinct inability to deliver such to date, why would we assume they will in future if only we provide them with more capital?

 

Up
0

These are good questions. One of the problems with New Zealand's current tax system is that it provides more incentives than most tax systems to invest in residential real estate, and as a result houses are artificially large and land is artificially expensive. Some of these decisions were made in the 1980s, concern the way retirement savings are taxed,  and can be changed. Other taxes seem poorly designed by the standards of overseas tax systems.  New Zealand seems to have difficulty in discussing  the appropriate design of taxes; we get involved with slugging matches over the level of taxes (higher or lower) rather than the types of taxes that are used to raise revenue. Fix some of these issues and investment performance should get better.

That said, most evidence suggests r >g ie the returns to capital investments are higher than the growth rates and thus future productive capacity is increased when savings are invested . It is easy to get distracted by the returns to "paper" instruments when shares increase or fluctuate wildly; but when economists measure how underlying earnings and productivity increase after resources are invested, there is pretty good evidence that the real ongoing returns exceed economic growth rates. This is why i am comfortable that it is more  reasonable to expect the economy to be dynamically efficient ("r > g") in the future than for real investment returns to be less than the growth rate. in these circumstances public or private save-as--you-go schemes should be better than pay-as-you-go schemes and we penalise young people by imposing a pay-as-you-go pension scheme on them.    

Up
1

And that is the crux of our difference..

Of course r will exceed g if your are prepared to keep shovelling increasing amounts of fiat in at the front end....but to what purpose if there is insufficient of use to purchase with those returns?

It is a system designed to create bubbles...and bubbles always, repeat always burst.

Up
0

How about we remove the state from the equation? I get to keep my money, and I'm responsible for saving up for my retirement. At least some sort of opt-out mechanism would be nice.

Up
3

The consequence will be that the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and society disintegrates. The same argument can be made for abolishing state schools, the state health system, all social welfare, and reducing government to an army, a police force, courts, and prisons. Then you will be rewarded with all the crime that poverty brings, and ultimately insurrection and civil war.

Up
2

The argument for abolishing state schools, the state health system, public housing, the public health system, and most social welfare is self-evident.  Are those schemes / services running well? Are they efficient and cost effective? We all know that's not the case.  Why is that?  It's because when something's free, the demand for it is never satisfied and over time quality of services and their effectiveness degrade to the point of being useless.  

Up
1

Sounds a bit like how USA does it.  How are things looking over there?

Up
1

I agree.  This is the second of his opinion pieces I've read & I'm unimpressed.  From a policy perspective he has (fairly) identified a problem (i.e. the question of sustainability of the current National Super settings).  But his interventions lack a principles-based foundation.  In this one he raises the problem of intergenerational equity.  He's jumped to a solution but retro applies principles to support his intervention; i.e. we must move away from pay as you go to a save as you go, because the demographics of our society means a future generation will be unreasonably burdened by the cost of age-related welfare.  He skips over the fact that this has been true for a long time. The question he poses is whether people (i.e. society as a whole) should pay for activities that occur at different stages of a person's life.   This really is the nub of the issue.  Is it fair for people with little education (for reasons of choice or some type of disability) to pay for the tertiary education of others?  Is it fair for the young & healthy to pay taxes to prolong the lives of elderly and chronically sick people?  State mandated transfers from one group to another group stifle individuals' choices, rational decision-making  and personal responsibility for those choices.  It's also actually quite inefficient because there's a high transfer cost along the way.  It's impossible to fully balance the equity issues because there's never enough money and tweaks to the system involve yet higher costs and demands on a shrinking number of net taxpayers to pay more.  

That's where Andrew's idea keeps falling down, because he, like so many on the left thinks it can be fixed with a discriminatory tax.   

To tackle the affordability / sustainability issue, there could be another way - actually there could be many alternatives.  I listened to Stephen Franks on Radio NZ last night and he said it was 'nuts' that he's drawing the National Super while he's still working.  It should be possible to incentivise people to either decline the super or defer taking it until later in their lives.  That approach doesn't involve any new taxes.  

Ultimately, if anyone expects the state to provide the solution their deluded.  On this question we have a fantastic example that shows us the state is the problem.  Afterall, if the state hadn't created age-related welfare, we wouldn't be writing about how unsustainable it now is.  

Up
1

Coleman clearly has his consciously biased tax agenda driven by his personally preconceived opinions of " fairness", "problems" & "solutions". He's not interested in a debate of democractic principles.

Up
2

It is certainly true that I  have written at length about the way New Zealand has the most unusual tax system in the OECD, with unusually low taxes on labour incomes such as wages, unusually high taxes on capital incomes and profits and inflation adjusted  interest earnings, an absence of capital gains taxes (although this is only a small part of the issues) and an unusual way of taxing retirement savings.   Part of the reason for writing this series is to emphasise how we have taken a really different path from the rest of the world since 1975, and to question whether this path is creating problems. Standard tax theory suggests our taxes are problematic  both because the create incentives that lead to a low- productivity economy and because they distort prices in a manner that leads to inequality. There are good reasons why none of the high income, low inequality countries have a tax system like ours.  You are welcome to contribute to this debate; i shall be writing more about taxes in due course. 

As to democracy: from the start i have made it clear that people under 45 should (in my opinion) have the right to redesign the pension scheme they want to have in the 21st century, because they had no role in designing the current scheme, and the current scheme disproportionately pushes costs onto current and future  generations of young people. I am well over 45 and don't expect to have a say about the features they want from a retirement income system. i do expect to have some say in any debate about how older and younger people sitting around the table decide to reallocate the bill, if that is what younger people want - that is, one person's say, the same as you. 

Put more bluntly, I don't believe the people who designed the current retirement and tax system in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s had a monopoly on wisdom and designed a system that cannot be improved. It is time we - especially younger people who will spend their whole adult lives in the 21st century - reexamine what we have and see if it is fit for purpose or whether it can be improved.   

Up
4

Spend first, then tax. Why is this important? Because nobody paying tax is paying for anything. Paying tax does not earn you a right to any special services or benefits (such as super). If you've paid tax your whole life, great - you've also earned an income. An increase in taxes allows for increases in funded public services that the private sector are either reluctant to provide, or would require extortionate fees to be "profitable".

Means testing super is clearly necessary. The part that young people should get riled about is that the cost of superannuation has now surpassed the cost of educating their children. Soon it will pass the cost of healthcare. Next, the nation will be a broke retirement village.

Something in this economy has to give, the young and skilled can't afford it and are leaving.

Up
0

Reading, this, it made me laugh at these suggestions. It seems to me that some people spend a lot of time trying to think of incredibly complex and punitive ways of coming to what actually needs to be a very simple solution.

Suggesting that is a good idea to punish people between 50 ad 65 with higher tax rates because they might find it easier to save, is simply insane. Those people mostly have or are approaching the stage where they have finally paid off their mortgages, and the prize you offer, is punishment for the rest of their working life.

The simple solution to this is time. You need time to save, and so the answer is education and time. The education needs to start young and people need to realize they have responsibility to save and support themselves. When you are young it is much much easier to adjust your lifestyle to your saving requirement than it is when you are older and you have all sorts of commitments you have signed up to in terms of debts and other things that people buy for whatever reason.

I saw some basic math a few days ago flash by on facebook about the difference between becoming a millionaire based on saving from when you are 20, and if also if you started at 50. The difference required in per week savings is massive, and that is the only education people should need.

Luckily for me, I knew the value of saving when I was young, and I did start at 20, and did adjust my lifestyle to ensure the correct percentage of my salary was saved. Looking recently at the performance of my fund, this year to date, I have earned close to 7K per week, every week, after taxes just in my superfund. I'm also saving the same percentage of my salary now as I did when I was 20. I probably don't need to, but the thing about saving is it becomes a habit and this is what needs to be drummed into our young people, i.e. they have a habit, rather than a punishment to enable them to retire when the time comes.

Up
5

That's fabulous, averagejoe. But are you really the Average Joe? Many people, for a multitude of reasons, cannot save as you did from the age of 20.

The state pension scheme NZ Superannuation must be funded so that it can continue to support future generations to live their old ages in dignity as it (only just) does now. Thus we need to pour money into the NZ Superannuation fund to fill the bathtub to provide the sovereign wealth fund that will pay out the pension in later years when there may be as many or more retired as there are workers.

You're right: punishing people between 50 and 65 with a higher tax to fund future generations' super won't do; punishing anyone to do that won't be possible, because those higher taxes will be levied in any case to fund the greatly increased health care needed by an aged population.

Thus, rather than increase income tax, to finance the NZ Superannuation Fund we need to levy land tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, and gift tax.

Up
3

Yeah, pretty much. I had nothing when I was 20. I chose to not piss everything up against the wall, buy new cars, travel overseas or have a bunch of kids. I worked, and saved until I could afford to have kids and provide an excellent environment for them to grow up (warm home and a stress free environment = healthy well rounded kids, instead of them growing up in a tense environment with parents constantly worried about money), and also save have sufficient funds to have what I want, if I want it. If you want to do, it is easy (well to be honest I thought it would be impossible, but looking back it was pretty simple as long as you consistently stick to your objective).

Up
3

Ditto

Up
0

Thanks averagejoe, as a young person I will just save extra hard for my retirement that is going to have limited or no super payouts while paying for super payouts now. I get to pay for retirement twice and get half as much. Very fair!

Up
3

I don't see your point. My take on this is you can save now and complain about it, or not save and complain later (when you cannot do anything about it). You have that choice now. I made the right choice (when most people did not), and I certainly am not complaining about it now.

Up
0

My point is the system is not fair to young people or to poor people. I am saving now (despite it being harder to save than decades before) and am paying for a retirement base that in large was brought up to rely on NZ Super since that is what they voted for so either chose to not save as much when they could've, or is still collecting it even though they don't need to. NZ Super is diminishing over time so I'm likely to get little to none despite paying for it my whole life and will have to rely on a higher proportion of my savings.

There are alternative options for super but it won't change anytime soon because there is such a proportionally large population of people in or approaching retirement. They do not want to vote against benefits to them by changing to means tested super or any other solution.

Up
2

It wasn't fair when I started either, that was very obvious. When I started my salary was 1500 per month after tax. I was a student, and had a large loan to pay back (30K or so), and so I started by paying $500 dollars per month into a super fund (a managed one prior to KiwiSaver since I did not really know what I was doing investing by myself). I continued to do this for about 10 years, and agreed to an increase in the contribution every year (5-10% increase per year I cannot remember). So, after one year my fund was returning $600 per year (assuming 10% return which is not always the case), and then a year later it was $1200 per year, and then $1800 per year. You can see how the doubling effect takes place very quickly at the start because at the start after year one, including your contribution and the return, your fund is increasing at 20% per year. I did this for about 10 years and stopped contributing and let the managed fund continue. Then I started my own self managed fund and did the same thing again. Over time the returns massively outweigh any contribution you can make yourself and the math really works in your favour. Now I am in a position where if I get super when I retire, that's great. If I don't, I don't really care, and that is they way it should be. I am in control of the situation (at the moment at least anyway, and hopefully that continues). So, I would suggest you talk to someone and and make a plan, and start now.

Up
0

My work relates to investments so I'm okay on that front. The reality is no matter what way you look at it is it is harder to save now, and the retirement system here is unfair. Houses and rents are more unaffordable than they were before, real wages have not kept up, there is greater inequality between the top and the bottom among much more.

It is great that it worked out for you, and I am aware that if you are diligent it is still possible possible. But it is undoubtedly harder. I am planning it for myself and feel relatively ahead of my peers but that doesn't mean there isn't responsibility to look out for those who aren't aware or aren't in a position to save (especially through the environment they were born into) and make a system that isn't a burden on future generations (even more important when births are below replacement). I hope that when I am older the system does not shift responsibility to future generations to pay for our lifestyle.

Up
2

Yep, nobody is saying it was previously fair and now isn’t, it is undoubtedly harder now. The trade off is cheaper plastic crap. And that’s the crux. You can go without luxuries, but those luxuries are cheaper than ever, so you won’t get very far. The fundamental costs of living are more expensive, so the ability to exist and prepare for retirement are harder. I have children to raise and I can see that it will be harder still if we continue the same way. Communal living will likely be the answer whether they like it or not.

Up
0

We are not rich.  So.

1.  Rely on younger people to pay for your retirement.  That system will collapse as it gets increasingly top heavy.

2.  Save for it.  Yes, difficult as hell.  

3.  Starve in your old age.  Yes it's possible.  Starvation death is happening around the world now.

As there is no magic.  I pick number 2.

Up
0

It wasn’t far

and

Houses we’re so cheap I decided not to buy one

lol nice one

Up
0

Reading, this, it made me laugh at these suggestions. It seems to me that some people spend a lot of time trying to think of incredibly complex and punitive ways of coming to what actually needs to be a very simple solution.

Yes, we certainly seem to have plenty of available bodies already here that could be redeployed in lieu of immigration.

Full credit on your saving ways.  However, could you do that again now with current house prices?  If so, while you may have started with zero in your 20's, I suspect your income was much greater than average for a good portion of your earning years which obviously isn't an option for everyone since someone has to be below your average Joe...  But I do commend you on the personal responsibility you've taken, it is good advice for everyone.

Up
0

Thanks. Actually, when I was younger, and I was starting this saving habit, I decided that houses were so cheap I would not worry about it, and just buy one later. Obviously I was slightly wrong about that. I did not purchase a house until 20 years after I got into the workforce, I rented. In the end it does not seem to have mattered as the fund I generated over that time has completely overwhelmed any mortgage debt I had to take on later, so it worked out ok.

Up
1

Yup, every calculation I've ever done on renting and investing, vs buying a house, has come out essentially a wash.

Which option 'wins' by retirement, is completely dependent on luck / timing for the performance of each asset class. So it really comes down to lifestyle choices, and what you makes you happy / comfortable.

Needless to say we have gone the liquid asset route. And very happy about it. 

Up
2

You must be disciplined. I think most are not so disciplined, so a mortgage is like a forced saving vehicle like KiwiSaver. Most people wouldn't save the savings from renting, they'd blow it on discretionary spending. But if you're able to save then good for you.

Up
0

Yes you're right that's essentially it. You have to treat your savings / investments like a mortage. That gets paid first no matter what.

Up
1

Hello

You are of course correct, people who save early and save long on average build up wealth. However, this is not the whole issue. Part of the issue - the part I am focusing on - is that the government currently diverts a large and growing part of their incomes into a pay-as-you-go pension scheme that reduces the amount they can save without reducing the amount they consume. Pay as-you go pension schemes impose large opportunity costs on young people because it takes a chunk of their incomes and prevents them from saving and investing it in highly productive investment. Stop this and people will have more opportunity to save and invest and build wealth, as you desire. The opportunity cost is getting larger and larger, which makes it more difficult and for current generations to save than it was in the past, and the problem is getting worse not better.

The difficulty is unwinding the PAYGO-financed pension scheme once it has been established. Either pensions benefit need cutting (now or in the future) or taxes need raising (now or in the future) or both. If it isn't unwound, future generations will be paying more and more in taxes for the same benefits earlier generations received. They might find this to be fine - if so, that should be their choice. If not, we should think seriously about ways to unwind the current PAYGO system - to give current and future generations a better opportunity to invest and build  their wealth. I am sure lots of people will be happy to hear suggestions on how this can be done - or whether younger generations should just lump it and be told not to worry or be annoyed that earlier generations designed a system that disproportionally pushed the costs forward. 

ac

Up
1

National Super can't last.  It will break. (or say the expanding drainhole will keep the bath dry, if you must)

For New Zealand to keep in denial and to keep faffing about as we are, will just make the impending disaster worse.

We need to phase in a universal Kiwisaver.

The sooner we start the change over, the longer we take, reduces the double  pay problem.

We are not as rich as we think we are.  So we have to organise.

Up
0

No mention of what impact the $76B Super fund will have on the ability to pay superannuation in the future.  Surely that savings scheme must have an impact but it is not mentioned.  We already have a SAYO go system in place.

"The NZ Super Fund will help pay the cost of universal pensions for future generations of New Zealanders. "

https://nzsuperfund.nz/

 

Up
1

Leave the whole system exactly as it is now. Have you lot learned nothing ? everything that has been changed has ended up for the worse. Far bigger problems to sort in this country, its fiddling while Rome burns.

Up
0

Hi,

Sorry for the delayed response (I am on holiday)

Lee, Ronald (2007) “Demographic change, welfare, and intergenerational transfers: a global overview,” pp17-43 in Véron, Jacques; Sophie Pennee, and Jacques Légaré  (2007) Ages, generations, and the social contract (Springer)

You should be able to find this on Google scholar 

AC

Up
0