sign up log in
Want to go ad-free? Find out how, here.

Murray Grimwood argues it's time for some serious systems thinking, making sense of a complex world by looking at it in terms of wholes and relationships rather than by splitting it into silos

Public Policy / opinion
Murray Grimwood argues it's time for some serious systems thinking, making sense of a complex world by looking at it in terms of wholes and relationships rather than by splitting it into silos

By Murray Grimwood*

The Climate Change Adaptation Act, a potentially good piece of law, has received a fairly good injection of commonsense but we need to think further. Much further. And some of what we uncover may not be reassuring; indeed, much of what we have assumed may turn out to be incorrect.

Perspective is everything at such times; pointy-headed specialisation, great in times of plentiful supplies of energy and resources, doesn’t do perspective very well. Luckily our PM has access to the kind of thinking (systems thinking) required:

The biggest thinking-change needed, is from ‘funding’ to ‘allocating’; from proxy-earmarking to ear-marking of real resources. The days of betting on an unlimited planet are, simply, over. None of our legislation, active or pending, adequately addresses what is beginning to unfold.

The big picture

Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen gave us the big picture, many years ago. Energy and entropy are clearly the restrictions; the recycling of resources (which he labels materials) requires energy, so must be subsequent in our thinking. Energy is everything.

This graphic tells us that the ‘money’ we have hithertofore budgeted with, is really a proxy with which we head to the left-hand side of that box, and exchange it for portions of the two incoming arrows; energy and resources.

Contention for those may be inter-personal, inter-group, inter-business or inter-national, and may range from wheeling to warring, but the big picture is that those resource and energy flows must peak, then decline. We can predict growing contention; we can predict growing gaps on shelves and, from this simple graphic, we can predict major infrastructure triage, with or without ‘managed retreat’.

Growth, Limits to Growth, and de-growth

For 50 years, we have known we would arrive at a point where exponential growth plateaued, then reversed. Much vilified, the Limits to Growth Report has withstood the test of time far better than any other global economic projection. The following graphic (from Dr Graham Turner, via Smithsonian) shows us three inflection-points, happening about now.

They are: Services per capita, industrial output per capita, and – crucially – food per capita. Keep this in mind as you hear stories of tomato shortages, vegetable prices, egg unavailability.

Reference to this graph, and those three inflections in particular, must be kept in mind when making strategic decisions; politically distasteful though the implications may be.  

Misidentification; a waste of energy, resources and time 

Single-topic items – from ‘that dratted Putin’ to ‘no eggs on the shelves’ to ‘rebuilding’ to ‘labour’ – need to be laid upon those two graphics, if said topics are to be referenced in correct proportion. Access to energy is paramount; we are dead without it. Food is energy, ditto. Thus we can link a global lack of eggs (the dearth in France can hardly be due to a change in NZ regulations…) to global contention for wheat, thence to global contention for energy.

We can relate increasing global demand for ‘labour’, to a global reduction in energy-availability per capita; we have forgotten that both do ‘work’ and we have forgotten that fossil energy out-works labour by many orders of magnitude. And we have failed to realise that the current trend will accelerate; less and less available energy per nation, per capita, and per time.

Misidentification via lack of perspective, shows up currently with repetitive descriptions of upper-catchment topsoil – eons in the making – as ‘mud’ or ‘silt’. It may well be unwanted where it currently is, but topsoil is precious beyond measure, and – in the too-common self-important short-term appraisal that passes for journalistic comment these days – it’s loss is being entirely overlooked.

‘Slash’, too, has entered our vernacular, but really the discussion should be about how much material can be extracted (and how much needs to be left) to maintain soil nutrient-quality and volume.

Entropy

Entropy is the most important factor after energy, and the most unheeded of all. Energy, when we use it, gets degraded. It starts as high-quality, compact, a bang for our buck. The trend is remorselessly one-way (a hot cup of coffee always cools, ash never reforms as coal), ending in low-grade heat. Which is unusable; it takes more energy to gather it, than it would return.

Materially, entropy is decay. Decay needs parried – using more and more energy and resources – as time goes on. The Roman Empire did not decay for social or financial reasons; it suffered from a reduction in surplus energy (firewood, food) and an increase in entropy (road, farm and storage maintenance, defense demands). They clipped the ticket (printed money, in effect), re-jigged supply (split into two entities) to be more ‘local’, but succumbed (Homer-Dixon ‘The Upside of Down’, Tainter ‘Collapse of Complex Societies’).

Retreat

The Environmental Defence Society (EDS) and politicians at all levels, fail to overlay resource-depletion, energy and entropy when discussing retreat. They also fail to overlay ‘per head’. The big-picture realities are that over 40% of accessible land is already being used for human (or human-related) food production – and being degraded in the process.

That spatial pressure has seen us starting to harvest the coastal area, and indeed the ocean, as if it were extra farmland; this should have been seen as an overshoot-warning. Cities – temporarily supported by fossil energy – have grown too big to survive without it, yet are still being mislabeled as ‘more sustainable’ (what is overlooked, is the huge supporting acreage required to service them).

Now and henceforth, we are looking at multiple, overlapping incursions; an inevitable urban exodus onto food-production land, while biodiversity and carbon-sequestration demands compete increasingly with both. And a reduction – via floods, coastal incursion, land degradation and the need to repatriate – of the overall space available, even before contention is taken into consideration.

Thus, retreat needs not only to be physical retreat of existing operations, it needs to include reductions in total activity. By some orders of magnitude.

Population

The very undiscussed elephant in the room, is population. This is exactly the ‘per head’ labels in the Turner graphic, above. If access to resources and energy (left-hand side of the square, Georgescu-Roegen graphic) is real wealth, then less people equals wealthier people per-head. There is no point in hollering about equity, then, if overall population is not part of the discussion.

Those who point to female education as a driver of reduced fertility rates miss the point. The overshoot is here already. It is too late to solve the problem globally, in terms of raising everyone currently alive to First World consumption-levels. Not only that, but with eight billion or more living at an equitable and sustainable level of consumption, that level would be below current Third World standards. Well below.

Factor in the ‘rights’ of future generations, and that level reduces even further. Mother Nature – otherwise known as physics, chemistry and biology – will rationalize this dilemma, and it won’t be pretty. (Neither is war - our usual way of solving such competition - and since 1945, war has the potential to render the planet completely unlivable.) The more we can do about population (immigration restriction, disincentivisation) before nature takes over, the better.

Funding, budgeting, allocating

In the past, we have got away with budgeting in dollar terms (at least, in the First World) most of the time; there was enough remaining planet to support the combined forward expectation. That condition is increasingly untenable, raising questions about accumulated global debt, and continued belief in monetary constructs.

For the future, we need to think of budgeting physical resources and energy – earmarking them ahead – rather than piles of keystroke-issued digital proxy.

Future generations – our children and theirs – are not going to thank us for a collection of decaying, irredeemable and irrelevant infrastructure, nor for a legacy of debt (if the monitoring system survives), nor for any amount of gifted-but-irredeemable digital proxy.

Rights

There can be no unlimited ‘rights’ guarantee-able with an unlimited or an overshot population; there are merely ‘best possible in the circumstances’ conditions. Half the United Nations' Sustainable Development Goals are, in light of the above, unattainable. One, number eight, is total bollocks.

Truth – avoidance thereof

It is understandable that politicians avoid unpalatable truths; they’re out on their backsides if they articulate bad news. There are, however, precedents for society being in a position to listen to bearers of such; Churchill’s ‘Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat’ speech being a classic.

Academia fails the truth test too, with much less excuse. Their contract with society is that they are paid to examine – and present when found – truths. Too many, too often, avoid the uncomfortable; essentially putting career, or mana, ahead of truth-addressing. Academia also suffers from the silo-effect, professional inter-disciplinary genuflection too often overriding what should be big-picture resolution, followed by elimination of the disproven assertion.

The media are, increasingly, all short sound-bytes and shallow appraisals. Old- school journalism – of Reed, Gellhorn, Burchett, Hersh, Fisk depth and integrity – is nearly dead on the ropes. The replacement, sadly including publicly-funded media, is unresearched, unquestioning, narrative-assuming, virtue-signalling.

The environmental movement has, by and large, lost sight of limits thinking. Some advocate the planting of trees, to sequester dug-up carbon. Some believe we only need to drive electric cars (the right answer to the wrong question).

Many cling to hopes that we can mitigate the cumulative impacts of our activities by indulging in orders-of-magnitude-too-small actions (recycling, offsetting) or by championing prior cultures. Others have become sponsorship compromised. Some, and these have my utmost respect, know they are fighting a rearguard action, but do it anyway. The reality, though, is that every year that awareness of Conservation/the Environment has been a ‘thing’, the global ecology has gone backwards. Local First World ‘wins’, few as they are, can too-often be traced directly to offshoring (of pollution industries and/or practices). From all four cohorts, we need far better, urgently.

Future obligations

This gets tricky. Where? How long? For how many? Let us limit it to: New Zealand, seven generations hence, and ‘as many as can be supported within those’.

Fossil energy is in the rear-view mirror long before seven generation have passed, but the remnants of our existing infrastructure, will be around. The juxtaposition dilemma, is that ALL of our current infrastructure is fossil-energy dependent, or was designed for use in a fossil-energy-available world. (Electric cars, for example, assume bitumen, bridges and diggers). This needs a radical re-think; the assumption has been to carry on our style, with a carbon-reduction here and a riparian reparation there. That assumption was orders-of-magnitude adrift.

Triage time

The above, means that large portions of our infrastructure – from super-highways to digital-reliance – need to be re-evaluated. Much of what we then identify as ‘existing but soon to be irrelevant or unmaintainable’, needs to be appraised for it’s re-use or re-purposing potential; existing materials, in hand, are a better bet than potentially/possibly available materials from somewhere else. From both the supplied graphics, we can confidently predict that there will be a period – maybe more than a human lifetime – where such triage, re-use and re-adaption, will be a paramount skill.

Planning/retreating

The re-creation of what has been compromised, is now understood to be invalid unless the benefits outweigh the risks. So far so reasonable, but a look-ahead, even a short-term one, needs to factor-in the lesser or total un-availability of fossil energy, and its repercussions. Those things which required an energy surplus, particularly the rapid shifting of people and stuff, will be reduced, perhaps to negligible proportions. Local will therefore be the way of the future, making centralization of anything, Three Waters being a classic example, an incorrect move.

Lack of available energy will also render technical complexity a blow; typically complexity is used to effect efficiencies, but does so at the expense of resilience. As a rule of thumb, lower-tech is easier maintained and less vulnerable to parameter-alterations (like supply-chain issues, or immersions).

Assumptions need to change from ‘how/where can we shift this?’ to: Will this be needed/possible in the mid-term future? This is important, because we probably only have one energy shot at getting it right. If we get it wrong and the tanks are empty, there will never be another (this is a once-off event in human affairs; overshoots hithertofore have been local; global overshoot can only happen once in any meaningful-to-humans timescale).

The questions will be brutally simple: Can we maintain this, ex imported input? Will we need it in an era of severely reduced global trade? How many people can we support, at what level, doing what, where? That kind of thinking is hell and gone from ‘rebuilding’.

We are, slowly but inevitably, inching closer to the debate we need. We will probably run out of time, make that certainly. So even what we do in the remaining time, will need to be triaged (for instance, Onslow was a fantastic idea 20 years ago; have we the build-time left, given those two graphics?).

Lateral thinking – that enemy of those invested in existing formats – will be needed in spades; upstream-tethered floating houses, for instance?

Ironically, if Chris Hipkins has read his Mum’s book, we may have one of the few First World leaders familiar with the form of thinking best suited to addressing the next, inevitably down-shifting, years. What a pity it would be, if those around and across from him, didn’t know enough to engage. What a pity it would be, if an ignorant media didn’t understand what to ask him, to elicit such knowledge for public consumption.

What a pity it would be, if a need-to-fund curtailed academic research into the pending, multi-faceted predicament, diverting it instead into blind alleys (like hydrogen).

We can do so much better than that. ‘Disaster planning’ has to scope so much wider than cyclones, pandemics and earthquakes; multi-generational forward obligations have to be factored-in, as does capacitance (the ability to withstand, long enough to pivot/regroup; like having 15% spare hospital beds, or several months of spares inventories).

The biggest one, though, may be the message contained in those two graphics; the exponentially-increasing speed at which the resource/energy/ecological lid is lowering on the recent, temporary irruption of our species. That will demand all the thinking we can muster – and perhaps a little more. The need – the desperate need – is for meshed systems-thinking at all levels, in all things. The days of siloed thinking – an oxymoron, when you think about it – need to be over.

And ‘funding’ has to be displaced by ‘earmarked-for’. Someone should tell Treasury.


*Murray Grimwood comments on interest.co.nz as powerdownkiwi.

We welcome your comments below. If you are not already registered, please register to comment.

Remember we welcome robust, respectful and insightful debate. We don't welcome abusive or defamatory comments and will de-register those repeatedly making such comments. Our current comment policy is here.

234 Comments

It is about time our politicians got their heads around this and dragged the debate into mainstream discussions - instead of the distracting light weight political distractive dribble they engage in.

MSM have a role to play here too.

Well done Murray, I have picked up much from your posts of many years on int.co.

Up
18

Until such time as our politicians do have honest conversations about what is coming down the pike, just make sure you don't vote National or Act.

Realistically we need a UBI, which is a policy that TOP is espousing and will be much more amenable to the Greens, Labour and Te Pati Maori than NACT.

Up
4

How do you see a UBI solving the issues raised in the article?

Up
6

It won't resolve it, but it'll stop people starving / rioting / better support for 10%+ unemployment and tenuous employment that will be happening as a result of energy scarcity.

Less energy = less complex society, overall. It'll mean a radical restructuring of our economy.

The only question is timing. I believe things are going to start to get bad within 5 years.

Up
5

But one of the points PDK keeps bringing up is that money/debt is just future bets on extraction. Which is coming to an end. Where will the UBI come from?

The concentration of energy in oil just lets us do a whole lot more stuff faster.

Once that runs out there's going to be plenty of manual jobs back on the table.

Up
7

The economy is not going to go from its current state to a totally different state overnight. There is going to be a transition, likely lasting decades as our complex society unravels and adjusts to its new energy constraints.

A UBI will be sensible during this transition, especially at the beginning.

Eventually we may develop a new monetary system, but I expect the public, particularly in NZ, will want to have at least a minimum standard of living for everyone. That means some form of UBI - whether that's fiat money, or returning to WW2 era, direct rationing of food and fuel, etc.

The concentration of energy in oil just lets us do a whole lot more stuff faster.

Total understatement of what oil does for the society. Oil is used to make plastics - plastics that are used to ship everything, preserve food and reduce food waste, construct huge amounts of our houses and infrastructure with, even most clothing is now made from plastic. Medicines. Food and food additives. Fuel for long-distance travel. Rocket fuel to put satellites into orbit. Fertiliser is made from fossil fuels. Steel and concrete need huge amounts of fossil fuels to create them.

Right now we profligately waste oil by burning it in inefficient ICE engines. Those days are coming to a close.

Up
5

How would you wean a population off of the UBI once it's served it's purpose?

We could try that now with superannuation. Lets have a go at raising the age of entitlement and do some means testing as a proxy for weaning off a UBI that the whole population just got lazy on.

Up
3

You're talking about a future society that looks radically different from our own. It's not really worth speculating about.

Up
1

Short answer is you won't be able to support it long term so there will be no choice but to reduce it.

Up
1

"The problem with socialists is that they eventually run out of other peoples money" Maggie Thatcher.

Up
15

"The problem with capitalists is they believe in infinite growth on a finite planet" - Me, just now.

Up
19

If we ever reach "Peak Technology" we will be in serious trouble. 

Up
2

There's a very good chance that peak oil IS peak technology.

Up
6

We won't be able to afford large teams of researchers and engineers to develop new shiny things but technology will continue to advance but at a much slower pace and it will not be evenly distributed.

Up
0

You're making a big assumption that technology simply won't go backwards.

Most modern things are made from hundreds or thousands of different parts in complex supply chains. If companies that make particular components shut down, it can prevent downstream things being made. We already saw examples of this with cars during the pandemic, particular types of computer chips became unavailable and so cars sold from 2020-2022 often had features missing, or simply sat in warehouses unable to be completed.

Up
2

You do realize that all the socialist dreams & the entire public sector, welfare, health, education, defence etc are ultimately funded by hardworking capitalists generating the jobs, salaries/wages & profits that provide net  taxes. 

No civilization has progressed without capitalism and private property rights.

Be kind to capitalists, you need us more than we need you.

Up
11

No civilization has progressed without capitalism and private property rights

Rome? Ancient greece?

Up
2

... at the time , they were the greatest freely trading civilisations on earth ... shrewd businessmen  , who's taxes enabled emporers to build vast army's & navy's  ...

Up
4

But no capitalism and limited private property...

Up
0

You do not consider vibrant bustling market places full of produce , oils & spices to be capitalism ?

Up
0

No. To me that's a kind of market economy, but capitalism only appeared in the last few centuries with stock markets. There's many different definitions of it

Up
0

Before Adam Smith's philosophical basis for capitalism was set out by him, the social order/means of trade was referred to as mercantilism

Up
1

Yep and before that feudalism. 

I think people confuse trading with capitalism, but that's just by my definition.

I guess my defintion could more clearly be defnied as industrial capitalism. 

Up
2

Absolutely. NZ overtaxed the productive and carries the speculators who don't add value. 

What we don't need is a bunch of folk who received free education and affordable housing thanks to their predecessors' taxes, then receive a universal "socialist" benefit costing over 50% of our welfare bill thanks to their children's taxes, tut-tutting at others about socialism and rocking out the tired trope about "other people's money". It shows a massive lack of self-awareness and intellectual consideration on those folks' part. 

Up
3

And of course if we had a UBI in place now - those people who have been unable to work during/after the event and/or those whose employment has gone altogether - would not have to line up at WINZ, or whomever is providing this day-to-day expenses support.

If there was ever a policy that would guarantee and simplify administration of people's welfare in a disaster it's a UBI.

Up
6

UBI is a solution to a completely different problem than figuring out how to power down IMO.

Up
5

It's a component of the solution to powering down.

And the best part is, if all of this energy doomerism turns out to be wrong, a UBI is still desirable anyway.

Up
1

Agree, UBI is useful as a way of making change (e.g. jobs) less stressful and also would save a lot of wasted time and effort compared with the current welfare delivery method..

Up
0

On the contrary, if PDK were correct an ever expanding monetary supply and overly large bureaucracy are awful choices.  PDK carefully confines his stories about choice of energy allocation to physical infrastructure, however there would also need to be choices about which social institutions must be culled.  The highly centralised Department's of Education and Health probably won't survive in PDK's future.

If you believe in PDK's vision, just make sure to vote ACT - they'll start the needed reductions for completely different reasons.  

Up
7

I thought Act was pro-immigration (population growth).  Isn't that the opposite of what's required?

Up
0

How is global population growth impacted by any pro or anti immigration policy?   

ACT is pro-abortion, pro-euthanasia.  

Up
0

Nope, I'm voting National. Labour has achieved f**k all with their mandates for change and universal power, except to try and ram through one set of rules for Maori and one for everyone else. Hipkins had his dress rehearsal with education and sh*t the bed. They can take the horse they rode in on and the sanctimonious speeches and get the hell out of my life. 

Up
7

Whatever Labourthide, I’m voting for ACT.  Look at how Labour’s top-down "we know best" type of thinking served New Zealand during the last few years.  The country’s in worse shape than it's ever been in my lifetime.  Poverty’s expanding.  Trust in institutions is declining.  The country's divided.  Last time I was in NZ I noticed lots of stores closed down and replaced with liquor stores and vape shops.  Wokism, political correctness and cancel culture are downright frightening. Here’s a case in point, Professor Garth Cooper (a good guy and highly respected) wrote this letter in the listener which I thought was completely reasonable.  The poor guy was accosted by "an outrage mob" led by the usual labour sycophants.  It still sends a shiver down my spine knowing what they did to Dr Simon Thornley for expressing covid wrongthink.    I just saw this today in the Herald Air New Zealand is now having a Maori language only flight.  Nothing wrong with that, but does every business have to go over the top virtue signaling to pledge fealty to wokism if they want government support in the future, or is that just the media? Is this healthy? Haven't we got more important things to worry about.

Imagine if we really do have an oil output mediated economic collapse as the author suggests.  Do we really want those guys in charge of the nation’s wealth?

Up
2

Define 'wealth', post-energy?

Too many assumptions.

Up
0

Define wealth....the ability to provide the necessities for you and yours 

Irrespective of era.

Up
2

So...welcome ACT's top down approach to limiting property rights...coupled with some pretense of libertarianism.

Up
0

1798 it was , when the Reverend Thomas Malthus published his miserable theories on the future of humanity ... ... and for 225 sad long years reality has proved him wrong on every front ....

... and yet , his ardent followers have always been there , beating the drums , warning of the doom to come  ... the Malthusian movement is equally alive & strong today as it's ever been ... the bells of doom are tolling for thee , for thee I tell ye ...

... 225 years of backing the wrong guy , and they're still at it .... that's even more impressive than being a diehard  Auckland Warriors rugby league club fan ...

Up
14

Maybe watch this, from an expert on oil showing the world is going to be short of 2-3M barrels per day of 'oil' within 2-3 years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVhM9F3UNZY Skip to 28:00 if you just want to see that graph, but you really should watch the whole thing.

Up
7

That problem has been easily solved. Just call something else oil.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CDBJdQnjE2o&t=1422s 

All interesting, but around 24 minutes most relevant.

 

 

Up
1

Yeah it's the same guy. Thanks for linking that, I couldn't be bothered finding it. That's why I put oil in quotation marks in my comment.

Up
0

Two things that were totally predictable:

a) Malthus will be brought up as the 'put down' to the raising of these issues.

b) This particular commentator would be the one to do it.

 

It's about as logical as the thinking that 'as I haven't died in any of the previous days of my life, and as I haven't died today, then I must be immortal'.

Up
18
Up
3

And why not bring it up ?  PDK is a modern Malthusian ( only rather less sophisticated than the original  ) .

Same things that made Malthus wrong ( projecting the future assuming present or past state of technology ) make PDK just as wrong. 

 

 

Up
5

Bingo ! ... he assumes nothing changes from this day forth , that there's no scientific breakthroughs from this point :  in energy , medicine , agriculture , computers  ... no improvements ... ergo , problems cannot be solved ...

... and a solid 225 years of evidence to the contrary doesn't affect their gloom ridden outlook one iota ... 

Up
7

I don't think he assumes or thinks that at all.

I think he just understands that any of those technologies will be a matter of kicking the can down the road, and global civilisation has pretty much already worked itself into a cul-de-sac. We might be able to kick the can for another 5, 10, 15 years, but eventually we can't kick it further, barring some truly amazing discovery like a zero-point energy source, or aliens teaching us advanced tech, or some other thing that is totally unpredictable and simply very unlikely to happen.

Personally I put it in these terms - I think the chances that humanity will possess the technological and industrial base that enables us to put satellites into orbit in the year 2100 is about 30%. I choose satellites because they are extremely practical and useful technology, but also sit atop a whole industrialized civilization in order to happen - you need rocket fuel, computer chips etc to do it.

And a good part of that 30% estimate is - things simply don't turn out as bad as I'm anticipating, we do end up finding enough fossil fuels, climate change and environmental degredation doesn't end up being that bad, somehow we change socially, economically and politically and grow up to be responsible stewards of the planet etc. But I also leave room for tech breakthroughs - fusion energy, AI, a breakthrough that allows extremely cheap carbon sequestration so we can keep using fossil fuels, some space flight breakthrough that allows us to mind asteroids, etc.

Up
7

Human ingenuity is very good at pushing that curve to the right by stealing from the future (finance) or pillaging the past (fossil fuels). This will have the effect of making the fall steeper.

What would a world look like if you could only use the energy available in the present?

Up
7

Human history up until about 1850, really.

I've recently watched some youtube videos about electronic manufacturers that started in the 1900s. Their products up through about 1950-1960 were largely housed or made out of wood - think wooden TV boxes with CRT tubes embedded in them. They look goofy to us today because now everything is made out of plastic.

But plastic didn't use to exist.

Up
0

He wasn't out by much, only really a matter of seconds on the great clock of all time. We simply cannot continue growing without end on a finite planet and yes, the end of that pretty much buggers capitalism, but really that is too bad. 

We are already actually SEEING the limits now, how long before the natural world collapses completely? Even you must notice the distinct lack of insects that proliferated when we were young. Nowadays I can leave a window open, a light on and pretty not be bothered by anything, at all. WE did that, yet the capitalists say, more, more, more. 

Up
11

And while we're at it - make sure you put in a submission;

Ban bottom trawling and scallop dredging in the Hauraki Gulf

 

 

Up
7

Got an update to that 23 year old graph? For all we know the predictions from 2000 to now might have been as accurate as Al Gore's... 

Up
10

Would they be the ones where Gore predicted on going climate induced chaos being inflicted on large parts of the globe if greenhouse emission were not curtailed? Never mind, climate change will be along in due course to punch you in the face again (until you do actually get it).

Up
4

Didn't he say the arctic would be gone by 2016? Funny, I think it's still there.  And with more polar bears than ever.  But hey, what do I know?

Up
8

Where exactly would the arctic go? It's a hell of a lot warmer, but still called "the arctic".

Up
2

Mate, they're running shipping channels without icebreakers across the Arctic. Tell everyone how that doesn't count?

Up
0

Man made or natural climate change? What effect did the Tongan volcano have on all this flooding? I think these are legitimate questions?

Up
4

Scientists have been looking at this for a while now and concluded its man made on a global scale. There will always be localised events but these are noise rather than the trend.

Up
1

What effect did the Tonga volcano have on the extreme flooding in Australia in '21? 

Up
0

And can you fix your LTG links? The important ones are broken.

Up
0

2020 review here - performed by a KPMG partner as part of her PhD

Update to limits to growth (stanford.edu)

Up
2

If you look at the graphs in that 2019 update you will see they do not have actual results. Otherwise you would see the 4 graphs having the same results up to 2019. They are all different. 

You can call me sceptical when forecasts show a radical change "just around the corner".

If you are going to call for the proactive massive redirection of civilization back towards something resembling the Middle Ages, you need to lay out incontrovertible proof. A graph of 50 year old predictions, overlaid with actual results to 20 years ago, and showing the sky is already falling will not get buy-in from from the mainstream it needs.

As an example of public apathy, ask everyone boarding a holiday flight to Fiji if the believe in climate change. I bet most claim they do.

Up
7

If you are going to call for the proactive massive redirection of civilization back towards something resembling the Middle Ages

powerdownkiwi is not "calling" for it. powerdownkiwi is saying it is coming for us because the global economy has already missed the chance to avert such an outcome. We had to start the energy transition 30 years ago. Proactive investment into nuclear at the time would have made a huge difference, but the eco activists and other useful idiots turned nuclear into a scary bogeyman that prevented its proper roll out.

Bunch of interesting articles about nuclear power and how we ended up in this stupid predicament:

https://jackdevanney.substack.com/p/the-anti-nukes-scuppered-nuclear

https://jackdevanney.substack.com/p/the-two-lies-that-killed-nuclear

https://jackdevanney.substack.com/p/600-year-old-spent-nuclear-fuel-is

https://jackdevanney.substack.com/p/nuclear-is-too-expensive

https://jackdevanney.substack.com/p/the-great-nuclear-revival-that-never

https://jackdevanney.substack.com/p/nuclear-and-windsolar

Up
4

There is no incontrovertible proof but the principles remain - we will run out of food, energy and materials with a growing population and growing living standards. The exact timing may not be correct but the outcome is pretty much guaranteed thanks to our short-term thinking and the apathy you reference.

Up
4

Ah yes. Population. The word that shall not be spoken. Except by simpletons proclaiming  a NZ population doubling as a worthy goal. At the other end of the political spectrum we have an environmental party unwilling to discuss the issue at all. The common thread here seems to be we'll have 100 000000 climate refugees arriving later this century, so there's nothing to discuss. No discussion about how to support that number of humans either?

Up
17

Yes, the Greens used to have a zero population policy.  Now they have something saying 'NZ (oops they say Aoteoroa of course) will have an appropriate population level' which means precisely nothing.

Up
13

The offspring of green people are more worthy than those of non-green people due to their more correct enviro-morales.

Up
4

Energy is everything.

That might be slightly simplistic because we can cut waste from systems. For example over just the last 15 years we have cut the energy use per vehicle manufactured by 23%. Similarly future technologies will open up new energy reserves.

However I suspect what will save humanity from a future energy cliff edge is rapidly declining birthrates across the industrialised world. Allowing the human population in industrialised countries to grow so rapidly was a mistake.

Up
2

Energy efficiency just leads to Jevons paradox.

Also it's too late to save the earth from an energy cliff. It is happening within the next 5 years.

Up
8

Exactly - what has the total vehicle emissions graph done over the same period?

Up
6

Thanks - a continued upwards trend only interrupted by a pandemic

Up
0

They said that 15 years ago. I have little doubt they will one day be correct,  just not sure when.

Up
4

It could get a bit trickier than that though.

The next generation(s) are being steered towards very narrow and correct thinking. How many step change discoveries might never happen because free thought is being stifled?

Up
2

We aren't getting the kind of game-changing results from Western science at the moment to justify cranking the population knobs all the way up to 11. Moore's Law doesn't work that well anymore. The fundamentals of physical innovation have given way to concepts like 'XYZ (thing we already invented) but as a service!'. Subscriptions for toilet rolls were probably the peak of... something. The next 'leap' is supposedly five years away and has been five years away for about fifteen years now.

Unfortunately capitalism makes breeding uber expensive and NZ has become very good at sealing off the kind of higher educational aspiration we need for anyone not already on the pig's back. We are now apparently not even fussed if poor kids show up to school or not. Until western countries can arrest the slides in their basic literacy, numeracy and scientific literacy in their supposedly most important resource - young people - we're going to get diminishing returns from adding more. 

Up
8

AI has gone through huge leaps in the last 18 months. VR also has huge promise as a technology for communications, especially if people won't be able to afford long-distance travel due to fuel prices going through the roof / economic depression driven by energy scarcity.

But otherwise you're correct.

Up
0

Technology improvements in my short life should have been enough to compress a 50 hour work week into a Monday morning session before hitting the Links until the following Monday. We know now that capitalism finds a use for people's time at the same time as intensively devaluing it. AI crafted within that system in theory should end up with the same outcome - unless it really is the game-changer some people want it to be. I guess at that point all bets are kind of off? 

Up
6

Yeah. But what would us humans do if we didnt work. Idle hands and all that. 

Re AI. I honestly think it will accidentally do some real damage. Probably short of destroying humanity . But i like the story of a basic ai software that is plugged into the internet and manufacturing (as almost now) which is instructed to make manufacturing of paper clips as efficient and low cost possible. The ai simply computes that the primary cost of raw materials is high due to human  demand for other  goods dependant on the same materials and our ai thus wipes out most of humanity (weapons, gas, pandemic.. whatever) to eliminate competition for those materials and now it can access all the raw materials for $0. Job done with no malice intended and zero ai conciousness required.

 

Up
2

This is called the "AI alignment problem" - how to keep the motivations of AI aligned with the motivations of humans.

Up
1

Yes. Its the big elephant. Interesting see how well we do at that when the current greed and urgency of competition amongst the big ego IT billionaires is in the mix.. and governments are light years behind in understanding and regulating. Let alone the race for self managing killer drones in ukraine at the mo... see what happens when we let a superpower  invade a bunch of high tech wizards and then we give them potential to win through hacking AI into the USAs latest killer robots.... cant imagine motivation alignment is front of mind when fighting for your familys survival.

Stock popcorn in the bunker (devoid of tech).

Up
1

Why bother trying when the next AI tools will give you the answer?

How do you learn from failure if you're bought up totally insulated from failure?

What if the next genius with a brain wired, and an inquisitiveness to unlock the next big problem, is cancelled due to some utterances that offend somebody?

Up
0

Thanks PDK for the time, effort and sincerity of your column here today. Never fail to educate.

Up
19

If it takes a solar panel 4 years to produce the energy required to manufacture the solar panel, and the raw material is massively plentiful (sand), if the solar panel runs for 30 years or more, creating the possibility of making more solar panels, doesn't that form a exponentially increasing energy source that is far larger than we need?

Up
2

Solar panels need all sorts of rare earth elements (aka, lanthanides) to function. Not just sand.

Also watch the video I linked above from about 31 minutes, he talks about the inability of renewable energy to power the economy.

Up
6

Actually the sort of sand you need is not plentiful 

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191108-why-the-world-is-running-out-of-sand

Up
4

Always a great lesson/lecture. And must read Chris' Mum's book, thanks!

I'd like your more on-the-ground practical opinion on the RMA reform - as I guess it's the place to start in setting us onto a triage approach in terms of managing our resources.  Hence, I proposed the following Purpose for the Natural and Built Environment Act;

The purpose of this Act is to achieve national self-sufficiency, through -

(a) reversing degradation of the natural environment

(b) reducing energy consumption

(c) building accommodation for all

(d) producing sufficient food for all 

I'd be keen to hear your thoughts, Murray - or better yet your re-write of an appropriate Purpose.  Obviously the last one defining 'sustainable management' didn't work very well, if at all.

Hope you see this question and that the family are well - always a pleasure! - Kate 

Up
4

The last two items are population-dependent.

This is where the Greens (present iteration) are wrong.

Visiting Professor Ellen Moseley-Thompson put it perfectly some years ago: "you tell me the level of consumption you want to live at (which includes shelter and food) and I'll tell how many people the planet can support, long term".

Up
2

That's a reason why you don't think my suggestion is optimal.

But my question is what would your suggestion for a better Purpose for the principle environmental legislation/Act be?

It doesn't need to be an edit/amendment to mine, just keen to know how you would craft an overall Purpose.

As another example, here's the one the government's RMA reform proposal suggests;

 

The purpose of this Act is to—

(a) enable the use, development, and protection of the environment in a way that—

     (i) supports the well-being of present generations without compromising the well-being of future generations; and

     (ii) promotes outcomes for the benefit of the environment; and

     (iii) complies with environmental limits and their associated targets; and

     (iv) manages adverse effects; and

(b)  recognise and uphold te Oranga o te Taiao.

 

 

Up
0

As always, much of what PDK writes makes sense. Everybody knows that anything we dig out of the ground must, by definition,be finite. Thus, at some point the extraction of these resources will no longer be feasible. There will still some left, but extraction would cost too much. EROI is relevant here.

But, and I have said this before, his considered worldview admits of no possibility other than economic and societal meltdown. Of course, that may happen, but it is not pre-determined. The graph based on Limits To Growth shows a dramatic population decline in 2030 following economic collapse. What evidence is there for that? None is put forward and I for one, don't accept it.

Right now, Guyana is well on its way to becoming a significant oil producer, with over 11 billion barrels of proved reserves. The first discovery there was made in, I believe, 2015. It would be foolish to assume that there will be no further discoveries there or elsewhere.

On population he is somewhat coy. He writes; "The more we can do about population (immigration restriction, disincentivisation) before nature takes over, the better." neither 'immigration restriction' nor 'disincentivisation' ( an interesting word) addresses reduction, so just what is meant by 'nature'? A proper pandemic perhaps, like another Black Death? Global warfare? I think we should know what he envisages as being necessary to cure our population problem.

I think the biggest difference between us is that I accept that I may be wrong; the future may turn out to be much worse than I believe, or indeed, much better. PDK admits to no such possibility. I find that sad.

 

Up
6

Watch this video from an expert on oil where he predicts world 'oil' production to decline by 2-3M barrels per day within 2-3 years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVhM9F3UNZY around 28 minute mark, but really just watch the whole thing.

I believe his projections won't include political disruptions around Russian oil production, and neither do yours.

The problem with peak oil is NOT the total recoverable resource, and it never has been. The problem is always the rate of extraction. Continued supply shortfalls by demand by 1-2% is enough to drive prices up over $200/barrel - until the economy goes into recession (demand destruction) and brings the price back down. Unfortunately high oil prices are required to ensure supply is at necessary levels, but if high oil prices put the economy into recession, you have a catch 22.

Up
2

I doubt $200 a barrel would have much effect, remember oil was $147 a barrel in 2008 and here are today. What would that be allowing for some inflation?Not saying the oil price will not go higher that that though.

Up
1

Funny, I remember there being a great big GFC around about 2008 when oil spiked to $147 / barrel.

And oil production has gone up since then.

What happens when oil production is past peak - which by definition means oil production only ever declines, never goes back up.

Up
2

Oil deposits are vast and (not an expert) poorly explored. If you read the NZ petroleum and gas report it says that there could be large deposits in the southern basin (think Canterbury/Otago offshore) but it remains unexplored.

The US are Canada oil sands were economic previously and are reportedly vast.

Doesn't Venezuela has the largest proven oil resources? Yet they have never been a major producer - so good bet it's still there.

And still I think peak oil is just that, it doesn't mean production will drop quickly and may still mean we have a large scale hydrocarbon part of the economy.

Up
6

The world will be producing oil for decades yet. Running out has never been the issue.

The problem is that production can't keep up with demand. Also it generally takes around a decade to bring a new discovery online, aside from US shale which can ramp up much faster - but US shale is basically tapped out now.

Up
3

That 11 billion barrels will only power the world for about 110 days. Gonna need a lot more of them to keep BAU going.

Up
5

kwimm,

That's a very superficial response. The point I was making, which should have been perfectly clear to even the meanest intelligence, is that Guyana represents an entirely new source of oil and that it is unlikely to be the last. I don't know when the recoverable supply will run out, but neither does anyone else.

We may have passed peak oil, but even that is not certain. Bear in mind also that as we gradually reduce our reliance on oil/gas, demand pressure will ease, though it is certain to be our principal energy source for decades to come.

Up
4

The level of new reserves found per year is dropping Global oil reserves volume in billion barrels 2020 | Statista and we are now finding less per year than we use in a year. This will only get worse as our demand is increasing year on year.

Oil is finite so, at some point, there will be no more. New reserves just push the date out a bit further but don't solve the fundamental problem.

Up
3

" ...so just what is meant by 'nature'? A proper pandemic perhaps, like another Black Death? Global warfare?"  Global overheating will suffice.

Up
0

Isn't it just a question of timing? Sure we might keep finding pockets of oil and other resources and push the inflection points out a bit, but at some point they do run out or become uneconomic to extract. Then industrial production will reduce and bad things will happen. I doubt it will be 2030, but maybe within my lifetime?

Up
5

Correct, the only question is timing.

Everything, everywhere, ends.

Up
6

On population decline. One of my favorite commentators at the moment (although rather depressing when you listen to him too much)

"When you live in a rural environment you have more kids because they are free labor. When you industrialize and you population moves to the suburbs then you have less kids because they are annoying, loud, mobile house ornaments."

China, Russia, Germany, Japan all have populations that will start declining (if they haven't started already). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeONXVh9G28&feature=youtu.be

 

On electric cars. The overall view on electric cars is that they aren't really carbon neutral or negative. You have to mine 15x the resources from more countries to produce them. So yeah, they are great for the carbon picture for NZ but the rest of the world? No. (and this is ignoring the HUGE ethical and moral issues of mining in third world countries).

Up
1

On electric cars. The overall view on electric cars is that they aren't really carbon neutral or negative. You have to mine 15x the resources from more countries to produce them. So yeah, they are great for the carbon picture for NZ but the rest of the world? No. (and this is ignoring the HUGE ethical and moral issues of mining in third world countries).

Not even close. 

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

The pace of innovation in EV batteries is far ahead of those of almost any other non-medical consumer electronics. The cobalt EV manufacturers are moving away from altogether has been used in consumer LI-Ion batteries for decades without anyone raising an eyebrow until it became an anti-EV talking point. Remember all those iPhones people were upgrading literally every year? With their hugely inefficient battery and materials usage compared to what we had now? I can't recall anyone panicking over ethical mining practices then, can you honestly say you did either?

Up
2

Not even close

To reach current goals we need approx 1m tons of lithium per year, we are mining 100,000. Doubling production will take 10 years. 

Then you need the rest of the materials which all come from totally safe countries where the supply chains are rock solid. 

They are a nice fad but unless we can mine the raw materials in NZ or Aus and manufacture then really they are just expensive virtue signaling. 

 

Don't know what your point is with phones, both are bad? yeah, duh. 

 

Up
3

One of the largest global uses for cobalt is for refining oil. So if you ethically against this then a cobalt-free EV is the way to go.

Up
3

Thanks, didn't know that factoid.

Up
1

"For the very first time in 2021, cobalt demand from electric vehicles overtook other battery applications to become the largest end use sector at 34% of demand. It is expected to account for half of the cobalt demand by 2026."

 

https://www.cobaltinstitute.org/resource/state-of-the-cobalt-market-rep…

Up
1

Yes, because most EV batteries currently use cobalt.

But there are EV battery chemistries that do not use cobalt that are already being used in production vehicles such as the Tesla Model 3 and BYD Atto 3 for example. The energy density of these batteries is not quite as high as the EV chemistries that include cobalt, but they also have much longer endurance - you can expect to get 1,000,000 km out of one of these no-cobalt batteries before the capacity degrades to around 80% - at which point the car is still VERY driveable and the battery could be re-purposed into a grid storage application if 80% of your cars original range was still a problem.

It's called Lithium Iron Phosphate, often acronomised to LiFePo.

Up
0

The reason birth rates decline is because women have the choice to have as few or as many children as they wish or even none at all. Only where women do not have such choice are birth rates continuing to rise - see Gloriavale, and countries/cultures that deny women such rights.

Up
2

I can see the population estimates, some reduction of services/output being and the climate effects being accurate but I cannot see a large scale reduction in industrial output happening soon. There is vast oil and gas reserves, not even including shale oil that will hold high levels of total industrial production for a long time.

Up
5

CeeJ - do some research on EROEI; Energy Return on Energy Invested.

:)

Up
3

Why should he ?

Up
1

There is also the interesting argument/position that "unborn people don't get a say or don't actually figure in the debate"

Nothing to say people have a right to have children or that we have to save resources for them - when the species is done then the planet continues on regardless

PDK you have said that here and now there are to many people for the planet to cope - so the pope is a problem as was creating covid vaccines - people interfering in natural selection is to our disadvantage. But who decides who is going to go. Maybe capitalism is the answer as it becomes to expensive to have children

Personally I would put my money on people still being here in 225 years time but guaranteed the world will be different and almost certain that they will be better off with an even higher std of living than we have today - and for some people Malthus and Chicken Little will still be a thing

 

Up
4

So , at the moment , old Tom is 0 - 225 at getting his gloomsterisational predictions correct ...

... you're reckoning moaning Malthus will be 0 - 450 eventually ? ...

Cool ! ... I'll get the popcorn  , the beer fridge is loaded : let's watch & wait ... 

Up
2

Hi PDK. What causes that first inflection point in the graph? Is it the nonrenewable resources getting to the point where it can no longer support current industrial output per capita?

Up
1

Best question of the thread (although I like Kate's RMA thoughts).

Yes, plus entropy. We have never had more infrastructure; never had more demand for maintenance thereof (as we've recently seen; more means more being impacted by events). That maintenance has been competing more and more, for the less and less available NRR's. So less net materials - and energy - available thereafter. Plus which we tend to defer maintenance, which compounds...

Up
3

The thing I have the most trouble with is the timing. How long have we got left before the reduction in non-renewable resources starts to really affect our productive capability? 2030 seems unlikely but that could just be my own bias/preferences showing!

Up
2

It already is - that's what global inflation is being driven by.

Up
2

It doesn't seem to me that there has been much reduction in usage of non-renewable resources at the moment? We are still full steam ahead chewing through them.

Up
1

Er, did you not notice the energy crunch in Europe? That the US has drawn down it's strategic petroleum reserve to the lowest levels since the early 1980s?

Up
0

Though, I think I read they had fully replenished them?

Up
0

No. They had a plan to buy something like a measly 3M barrels sometime in the next few months, but I think they didn't end up going ahead with it.

It's still at the lowest point since the 1980s.

Up
2

The energy crunch in Europe was because of war and choosing not to use Russian oil and gas.

Up
0

I suggest it was coming anyway.

War over energy, that is.

And I'm very sure Putin knows what is being played for, as does Victoria Nuland. As does Robert Kagan.

 

 

Up
0

Energy is everything.

However PDK takes a very small subsection of our solar system and calls it a "Big Picture".  In reality Earth gets a billionth of total solar energy.  PDK's picture would not even appear on a single pixel inside a display of our the real long term energy situation. 

If we expand our Economic Rectangle out beyond the Biosphere Circle and into the massive amount of energy available - problem solved. 

Humanity is coming to a crossroads where we can either (A) sh#t the bed or (B) get up and move.  PDK will of course say that we need to select option (A).  

Up
4

Where do you suggest we move? Most places other than earth don't look very appealing

Up
3

Currently we have abundant fossil energy and everything is good, but like PDK observes that is running out.  

If the future is either PDK's 90% population reduction or expand into space - it becomes a lot more relatively appealing to expand.  It only needs to be less than 90% fatal to be the better choice.  The rest is just engineering. 

Up
1

At current rates, we would consume all the energy in the Milky Way galaxy by about 2400 AD.

Galactic-Scale Energy | Do the Math (ucsd.edu)

Up
3

by Lanthanide | 2nd Mar 23, 2:01pm

https://xkcd.com/605/

 

 

Up
0

PDK fails to include nuclear energy in his Malthusian diatribe.

"Emmanuel Macron has announced a “renaissance” for the French nuclear industry with a vast programme to build as many as 14 new reactors, arguing that it would help end the country’s reliance on fossil fuels and make France carbon neutral by 2050."

 

Up
5

Electricity makes up 15% of the world's energy usage.

Fossil fuels make up 85% and in many applications the technology does not exist to allow their use to be replaced by electricity.

Up
5

Nuclear power plants don't just produce electricity. Why ignore ignore nuclear power on a post about energy?

Up
2

Ok, what else do they produce that is relevant to your comment about PDK's "Malthusian diatribe"?

Up
0

Electricity can replace fossil fuels for transport, you can also make hydrogen out of it.

Electricity can replace gas and coal for heating and industrial applications.

Up
1

I never said either of those things "couldn't" be done.

However they have to be done on a scale large enough to make a difference. How much is it going to cost to replace all vehicles with battery powered ones? How long will it take to build them all? Do we even have all of the raw materials required to build all of those batteries?

EVs use a lot of copper. Wind turbines use a lot of copper. The copper industry is already projecting that by 2025-2026 there won't be enough copper mined to meet demand.

If electricity makes up 15% of the world's energy usage now and fossil fuels 85%, how long will it take to build all the power plants to replace fossil fuels? How much will it cost?

Up
2

So 56 reactors haven't decarbonised France, but another 14 will? Didn't realise you considered CO2 emissions a problem in the first instance?

Up
1

I'm sure it was just Macron, like all politicians, virtue signalling about the carbon zero fad du jour.

Up
2

Can you recommend any good sci fi movies on Netflix?

Up
1

People keep on recommending I watch Elysium.  

Up
2

Arcane is very good.

What do you recommend?

Up
0

'Don't look up' is the best of all. 

Except it's not sci-fi - it's trying to tell us something.

You, for instance, should take heed of the final scenes....

:)

Up
2

If you like Jennifer Lawrence movies, watch the Hunger Games.  

 

Up
0

What current technological options are there for option B? I don't believe there are any, and the energy required to develop them has already been squandered. 

Up
1
Up
1

Read about that years ago, but what is the EROEI? Why is it worthwhile? 

I'm a fan of nuclear power, but I do understand that it is tinkering on the edges, doesn't answer the core problem, and at it's very best only delays the inevitable unless other major changes occur.

Up
1

A welcome dose of reality....sadly I fear you are to be Cassandra reincarnate.

Up
6

"Much vilified, the Limits to Growth Report has withstood the test of time far better than any other global economic projection." When it was written proven oil reserves were 300 billion barrels. They are now 1757 billion barrels. The report has utterly failed the test of time.

"Global oil and gas reserves increase in 2022

Dec. 5, 2022

The world’s proven oil reserves total 1,757 billion bbl, up from 1,735 billion bbl a year earlier, according to Oil & Gas Journal’s annual assessment. Global proven natural gas reserves are now estimated at 7,456 tcf, up from 7,297 tcf surveyed last year."

https://www.ogj.com/exploration-development/reserves/article/14286688/g…

Up
6

profile,

You and I seem destined to butt heads. BP's Statistical Report of World Energy would agree with you, giving a proven reserve of some 1.73 trillion barrels.. On this basis, both Saudi Arabia and Venezuela have some 300 bn barrels each.

However, Rystad Energy, applying the standards used by the Society of Petroleum Engineers to quantify resources, came up with very different figures. On the basis of proved and probable reserves in existing fields, they estimate a global total of some 1.152 trillion barrels.

To reach the much higher figure, requires reserves from as yet undiscovered fields to be included. Let me quote from the American Oil and Gas Reporter; " Other public sources of global oil reserves are based on official reporting from national authorities, with reserves reported based on a diverse and opaque set of standards". Thus much of Venezuela's reserves are no more than their statement to that effect.

Up
3

Hi Linklater

COR predicted oil to run out by 1990 and gas by 1992. The prediction has not stood the test of time - we have six times the proven oil reserves despite the massive increase in consumption. You can quibble over the SEC regulated proven oil parameters but the prediction was a fail. Yet Malthusian tragics still cling to it.  

Up
4

I guess because some predictions were wrong once, we have nothing to worry about.

Phew.

Up
3

I'm sure you and PDK won't run out of things to worry and lecture fellow man about!

Meanwhile the doers will keep doing to keep the hand wringers and village shamans fridges full. Record crops, record coal, record oil... "Crude production in the shale basins will rise by about 75,000 barrels per day (bpd) in March to a record 9.36 million bpd, the EIA projected."

"Renowned English grain grower Tim Lamyman has set Guinness World Records for both wheat and barley yields.

The farmer, who crops 600 hectares in the county of Lincolnshire, achieved a wheat yield of 17.96 tonnes to the hectare, beating the previous record of 17.40 tonnes from New Zealand farmer Eric Watson in 2020.

He also registered a barley yield of 16.21 tonnes to the hectare, beating his own world record by two tonnes."

Up
3
Up
2

Better to forgo human ingenuity and farm triple the area using luddite organic techniques? You prefer the Sri Lankan starvation method?

Up
1

It's not human ingenuity, it's just using resources faster. At some point we will have to forego it.

Up
2

His ingenuity uses resources more efficiently. Guys like him are reason we have reached peak farmland. If everybody farmed like him we could retire millions of ha of farmland and greatly reduce nitrogen demand. By hey let's go organic, chop down some more rainforest and starve a few people on the Malthusian way.

Utilising nuclear power for ammonia production."This innovative project through the use of electrolytic hydrogen as a decarbonisation process will be the first in France by its scale."

https://www.borealisgroup.com/news/borealis-and-hynamics-jointly-work-o…

"The world produces more food than ever, but the amount of land we use is now falling. This means we can feed more people while restoring wild habitat."

https://ourworldindata.org/peak-agriculture-land

 

 

Up
1

That time stupid Malthusian predictions killed a million Irishmen. There is very real cost of know all doomsters who vainly believe they can predict the future.

"At the height of the crisis the policy stance adopted by the Whigs was influenced by Malthusian providentialism, i.e. the conviction that the potato blight was a divinely ordained remedy for Irish overpopulation. Compassion on the part of the British elite was in short supply. The fear that too much kindness would entail a Malthusian lesson not learnt also conditioned both the nature and extent of intervention (Gray 1999).

The Irish famine killed about one million people, or one-eighth of the entire population."

https://eh.net/encyclopedia/irelands-great-famine/

Up
3

There is very real cost of know all doomsters who vainly believe they can predict the future.

Ok, so we should just build all of the houses and infrastructure that were just destroyed by the cyclone in exactly the same place?

Because obviously it's 'vain' to attempt to 'predict the future'.

Up
3

You confuse learning from history with predicting the future. Epic segway btw! Though I guess if there is any portion of the population that has not learned from history it is the Malthusian tragics.

Up
3

I suggest you read the book Collapse, which looks at past civilizations that have collapsed. You know, history. https://www.amazon.com/Collapse-Societies-Choose-Succeed-Revised/dp/014…

You might like to consider what happened to Roman society, you know, history.

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” – George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

Up
2

Yes, read it. Societies that didn't have democracy and private property rights failed. I enjoyed Germs, Germs and Steel much more - much more relevant how the flow of ideas transform societies.

The history we need to learn from is how many failed doomster predictions are out there. CORLTS a very obvious one given we are still using oil and gas post 1990.

 

Up
3

No, they didn't. That time, Britain's demands for the other food Ireland produced, were more colonialism than anything else.

They chose what we all do - ourselves over others.

That said, they probably knew more than you are paid not to...

Up
1

profile,

I am puzzled by your reply. I simply made the point that there is a degree of uncertainty over oil reserves.  I don't see how undiscovered fields can be included. I didn't mention Malthus, nor would I drag him into the issue.

Up
1

Undiscovered fields aren't included. https://www.sec.gov/divisions/corpfin/guidance/oilandgas-interp.htm

CORLTS is the grandaddy of Maltusian doom predictions even if you use your definition the publication was still a fail.

Up
3

But are entirely predictable, trend-wise.

Unless, of course, you're paid to overlook...

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Worldwide-oil-discovery-and-consump…

1964 was a log time ago, but 1964 was the peak of discoveries.

And, strange to relate, you cannot produce what you have not discovered.

Up
2

If it was entirely predictable we would have run out of oil in 1990 like CORLTG predicted. That Association for the Study of Peak Oil 2008 chart is a nonsense. Proven oil reserves are at record highs. We have more recoverable oil now than ever.

https://www.ogj.com/exploration-development/reserves/article/14286688/g…

Up
4

Read the article linked in my reply on 2nd March 9:01pm that shows how those "proven" reserve figures are wrong.

Regardless, the ultimately recoverable resource figure you are talking about doesn't matter a lot.

If the world requires 102M barrels of oil daily to keep BAU going but, for whatever reasons, can only produce 100M barrels daily, that shortage will drive prices through the roof and harm the economy - aka create demand destruction.

The US under Biden drained its SPR to the lowest levels since the early 1980s in order to keep gas prices down to shore up their chances in the mid-term elections.

Now imagine that the world is already past peak oil, or will pass peak oil this year. That means there will always be less oil produced daily in the future than there is now. That means prices will structurally be going up from where they are now. That means structural inflation - and in fact stagflation. 1970s oil shocks over again.

Up
2

You can quibble with the  SEC over proven oil parameters. https://www.sec.gov/divisions/corpfin/guidance/oilandgas-interp.htm

Draining the SPR was politics. As was shutting down Keystone. Europe sits on massive oil and gas reserves but made the political decision to not tap in to it - but instead fund Putin's Ukraine war with Russian gas. Production is political limitations not pyhsical limitations. CORLTG was all about physical limitation predictions not politics.

Up
2

SEC rules don't apply to foreign countries.

It doesn't matter what the cause of the production limitations are if they wreck the economy and it takes generally in the region of 10 years to bring new production online.

You keep harping back to old predictions that didn't pan out, while ignoring all of the evidence in front of you showing we're very close, or have passed, a peak in production of oil. And LtG wasn't only about oil - the copper industry is saying demand will outstrip supply by 2025-2026 also.

Up
0

Oil is the most obvious doomster fail. Nickel got very expensive and doers figured out how to utilise laterites.  Copper is another a great example. People are out there working on problems and freeing up former waste resources. Malthusians and COR can never predict human innovation and hence always fail.

"Jetti's technology inserts a catalyst into a company's normal processing flow to extract copper from low-grade primary sulfides, such as chalcopyrite, which are abundant but not economical to process and often disposed of as waste. The conventional low-cost method of leaching copper material from ore is generally ineffective on primary sulfides, Jetti said.

Jetti has the backing of major industry players, including Teck Resources Ltd., BHP Group Ltd., Freeport-McMoRan Inc., Mitsubishi Corp. and Orion Resource Partners."

Up
1

When it comes to oil reserves, the adage "lies, damned lies and statistics" is totally appropriate, especially when you consider the economic incentives that every oil producing nation has to lie or fudge their reserve figures - OPEC production quotas are based on reserves.

Read this: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666049022000524?via…

Here's the key paragraph from the conclusion section:

If we add to conventional oil production that of light-tight (‘fracked’) oil, our analysis suggests that the corresponding resource-limited production peak will occur soon, between perhaps 2022 to 2025. If then we add tar sands and Orinoco oil, the expected resource-limited total peak occurs around 2030, although there is a major question over whether significantly increased production rates of the latter two classes of oil is possible. Finally, the resource-limited production peak of global ‘all-liquids’ is expected about 2040 or a bit after if the latter liquids are also produced at the maximal rate.

And as I have said elsewhere in the comments here, the issue is not at all the total recoverable amount of oil - the world will be producing oil for decades to come. The problem is the rate of production will not be able to keep up with demand, resulting in oil price spikes, inflation, and destabilisation of the world economy.

Look at this chart showing US shale production trends: https://www.investing.com/analysis/the-coming-collapse-of-us-shale-oil-…

This is what Macron was told by Saudi Arabia last year: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-27/macron-tells-biden-t…

Up
2

ADMINS - please let Scarfie back in, he must have learnt whatever lesson you wanted to teach him by now......

Up
4

I don't recall that Mr S was such a naughty skallywag that he  warranted banishment from these fertile soils of the vast Chaston plains ... 

Up
2

You should write satire. That really was a good turn of prose.

Up
3

I think NAct will struggle with their "anti everything" message. They will need to come up with a viable alternative. 

Up
4

Yeah, they are going to struggle going on about how bad everything is, but they can magically pull a tax cut out of the hat. 

Up
2

Just had a google and found a World 3 model implementation with code:
https://github.com/cvanwynsberghe/pyworld3

It looks to produce the correct graphs. Is this model correct for looking at the model and the outcome? PDK you might be able to produce your own plots from this with vector graphics.

Up
1

Nuclear power is a magnificent gift to mankind and one that has so far been squandered. Mass nuclear plus electric infrastructure will be the only way to go for large economies elsewhere in the world. And may be too late to achieve.

NZ may be able to skate through with our good renewable baseload. However our geography is a major problem in maintaining infrastructure and needs to result in much more localism.

I strongly believe we will see the return of coal or sail powered coastal shipping in NZ this century, as rail/road maintenance costs for many regions become prohibitive. The West Coast of the South Island for example may be completely abandoned, especially if the Alpine Fault quake arrives which is also pretty much inevitable.

Up
3

Thanks for articulating this very important subject PDK/Murray. This is something that has bothered me for many many years and prompted me into thinking about setting me and my family up for the future in NZ. I eventually found that there was no way that my family could survive without a functioning society outside my boundary. We all need to take this journey together to local self sufficiency and keeping enough useful infrastructure that we can easily maintain without fossil fuel. This leaves me feeling frustrated at the lack of engagement from the political classes, acadaemia and media as you point out.

I was thinking our hydro systems and water supplies might be two critical systems that might be maintainable. The NZ population conundrum is a major. What catastrophic event would prompt a major rethink and execute along the lines you suggest in NZ? The only one that springs to mind is a northern hemisphere wide war that severely restricts fossil fuel, food and parts supplies to us. Except it would be too late by then as we have no refining capacity for our locally produced crude to shore up any part of the shortfall.

I need better meds methinks to help me cope with my despondency.

Up
3

PDK - Algae biofuels. 100% organic, doubles up as waste water bioremediator, outputs be placed directly into existing combustion engines, minimal surface areas required!!!

Tech exists, will become viable is 1/2 of what you predict comes to pass

I've a background in aquaculture.

My point is....smile....solutions to our energy crisis may come from multiple, bizarre and unthought-of angles!

Love your work mate

 

Up
1

Yeah i hear all the talk about fatbergs blocking sewers , and tallow been $ 800 a tonne , and think cant they put 2 and 2 together. 

Up
0

How much does it cost to recover fatbergs and process them to a state that is equivalent to the tallow you say costs $800/tonne?

How many sewer fatbergs are there? How much does the infrastructure cost compared to the volume of these fatbergs?

Up
0

You don't recover it, you stop it going into the sewers in the first place. Collection from restaurants, butchers shops, larger institutions for a start. Then there's all the dead animals going to waste, now leather is not worth skinning, many are going to landfill, or other burial options. Plus rabbit, possums etc left to rot. It would probably require subsidy to setup,but the savings would be there indirectly.

Up
0

Yeah sorry solardb, not quite sure how to help here :)

 

Up
0

Ok, and how do we scale up these algae biofuels to replace even 10% of NZ's gasoline usage?

Up
0

Hey Lanthanide,

Good question.

So in a hugely oversimplified nutshell, raceway ponds, natural light, waste water (which could be from municipal and/or agricultural sources), specific algae species (note these fellas can now be cut and spliced at metabolic level to somewhat hyperinflate certain characteristics). All this, plus the international expertise, is available. Algae are up to 300x  more productive primary producers per hectare than say corn or other terrestrial crops. We have an abundance of slush wood to create supplementary CO2; again this tech exists.

The biggest bottleneck at the moment is the harvest, processing & extraction of the lipids. It's energy intensive at present so net energy balance unfavourable + can't compete with fossil fuels/ Gallon/L

That said, several US companies claim to have nutted this aspect with low cost modular tech. US companies will no doubt be happy to sell us said tech.

My point is that if said Govt in NZ is going to get serious on transitioning to biofuel (and maybe eventually bio-bicycles for all) they can invest. In terms of replacing 10%, I'm not sure of the sq/km of raceway ponds required (would vary on location, wind, light, rainfall, you know local growth factors) but these are just technical teasers. 

Basically, we can have a fully sustainable domestic algal fuel supply that cleans our shitty water, eats the CO2 from forestry slush that gets burned and can be pumped straight into most combustion engines. Any waste products will be recycled N + P which are essential nutrients so hold additional value. The water remaining would essentially be purified. 

I'm spending some time with some Spanish experts in the field next few weeks and already have a list of 200 questions. Every nation is dealing with our sad stewardship with many PDK's trying to educate and find solutions.

 

 

Up
2

We are starting to compete for sunlit area - note the Ryan (RNZ) interview this morning. That goes for algae, as much as for solar-panel area and carbon-sequestration and food-production.

And presumably, we need to leave a little over for other species.....

Up
2

Valid perspective PDK.

That said, I'd like to argue that maybe the algae offers the full spectrum - waste water treatment, CO2 sequestration, biological treatment, nutrient recycling and biofuel production all possible in less than ideal terrain! The Isrealis and Aussies plonk their algae farms in the desert (although I concede this may be a dream in NZ).

 

 

Up
2

One thing not appreciated by many is it does not matter how much of the finite resources we have, only that they are finite. Compounding growth will eat through it. You can plug any number into the model and you will still get the same result just with a slightly later peak. 

For example, in Herrington's paper LimitsToGrowth (kpmg.us) you can see that doubling the current known resources just moves the peak from about 2020 to about 2040. The collapse still happens.

The only way out of this is to align output to use sustainable energy i.e. that which is available and renewable in the present.

Up
2

Here's the list of the import (or possible all of) model parameters:

p1i=65e7, p2i=70e7, p3i=19e7, p4i=6e7, dcfsn=4, fcest=4000, hsid=20, ieat=3, len=28, lpd=20, mtfn=12, pet=4000, rlt=30, sad=20, zpgt=4000, ici=2.1e11, sci=1.44e11, iet=4000, iopcd=400, lfpf=0.75, lufdt=2, icor1=3, icor2=3, scor1=1, scor2=1, alic1=14, alic2=14, alsc1=20, alsc2=20, fioac1=0.43, fioac2=0.43, ali=0.9e9, pali=2.3e9, lfh=0.7, palt=3.2e9, pl=0.1, alai1=2, alai2=2, io70=7.9e11, lyf1=1, lyf2=1, sd=0.07, uili=8.2e6, alln=6000, uildt=10, lferti=600, ilf=600, fspd=2, sfpc=230, ppoli=2.5e7, ppol70=1.36e8, ahl70=1.5, amti=1, imti=10, imef=0.1, fipm=0.001, frpm=0.02, ppgf1=1, ppgf2=1, ppgf21=1, pptd1=20, pptd2=20, nri=1e12, nruf1=1, nruf2=1

 I know most of the commentors here won't understand this but if you look closely most of these number are 1 significant figure and are obviously arbitrary chosen. Anyone telling you this models the real world is either ignorant or a charlatan. Its just an interesting attempt to fit a model to some data with high inertia.

Up
4

So change the parameters to make them as favouarble as you want. The result is still the same.

Up
2

I'm not sure how much maths and computer modelling you have done, here. They produce a computer model that does a good job of replicating some data points and extrapolates forwards for a few decades before it deviates as built in collapse mechanism shows up at a time determined by some arbitrary numbers. It's impressive they do this with so few real prams but I have not see the model plotted against the known data from 1900.

Before I had a glance at the model I was expecting some regional data (eg for different Continents) but it's too simplistic to be anything other than a curve fitting exercise.

Up
3

50 years later, it is the best/longest 'fit' ever produced.

I think, with respect, you are starting from a need to disprove (hence the a-about-face comment?)

 

Up
2

We can't even model covid case numbers or wave peak timings with any accuracy. No one serious would even try do it for this. I have have had a quick look at the model and I don't see any modelling of the world its just producing a plot that fits some data.

I have seen the model, I have yet to see the methodology of how the "real" data is collected and collated into metrics to plot. The LtGers are supplying their own correct answers to the predictions they made. Again, I insist that could have sketched the continuation of each of these metrics to the same accuracy as the model. None of these values are going to suddenly change course.

Do you need me to further explain what I mean by a curve fitting exercise?

Up
3

Do me a favour, in two parts, please.

One; leave assumptions and fears aside.

Two; do some (dispassionate of course, because of One) homework. I'd read Clugston's Blip, Higg's Collision Course, Wright's Short History of Progress, listen to some Nate Hagens 'Great Simplification episodes (William Rees interview, Tom Murphy ditto - in fact Murphy's Dothemath site might be right up your alley.

It'll take some time - and my guess is that your needs (attached to One, above) will excuse you from making that time. But not from commenting, as if you have.   :)  (I come across that All the time, it's a very common phenomenon; nothing new.....)

Up
2

Don't change the subject. Today I finally found the correct Google search words and kiwimm endorsed one of results. I have looked behind the curtain and seen it was all fake. I am guessing you don't know know what you are seeing when you looking at a model's source code but there is nothing there should effect policy let alone even suggesting anyone consider something like not having a child.

I am bored of playing this motte and bailey fallacy game when we divert to something else apart from the LtG plots. Let serious people worry about peak oil.

I'm not even sure you understand my reasoning for calling it fake or just curve fitting.

Up
3

I figured you couldn't.

Even after I clearly pointed out that the curve came AFTER (as with all Systems Science)

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3828902-thinking-in-systems

(well worth the read, for others not so scared)

Up
1

Ta for the book recommendation.

Up
0
Up
0

You now have some code that you can make your own LtG plots with annotated however you want but you used ones mentioning an inflection around 2030 and you also referenced them. Kiwimm also started this tread as a discussion about World 3, please stay on topic.

"Peak oil" is real but LtG is not the way to discuss it.

Up
3

Fascinating comment

How did driving do, without filling your tank?

I'm guessing the car ran to a halt.... And that you could crank it on the starter, but the battery went flat after a minute, 30 metres further down the road. Much lower EROEI,you see. Sequential next-best-options so often are....

I could plot your progress, vis-a-vis your energy input. I wouldn't pre-design cessation in as an end-point; wouldn't have to. But a plot of vehicle-miles per time, would suggest your system had collapsed.

Good luck to you...

Up
0

As far as I can tell the World3 model is designed to produce a collapse. Sure, you can change the parameters and change where it occurs and add other parameters so the collapse numbers decays when you want it to to make look real or push the idea we can do something.

All the models I can find on github have a tiny set of parameters and half of them look made up rather than calculated from any stats. The entire thing would struggle to justify a masters project. They look like they just collated 70 years of data (of values amount inertia) fitted a model to it and picked some numbers that would produce a collapse at a desired time in the future. Its a nice though experiment but no one should be making policy or life decisions with it.

You could do the same thing if we were still using firewood as fuel.

Up
8

Lack of wood led to the fall of the Roman empire.

All models are wrong but some are useful. This one falls solidly in the useful camp having tracked well for 50 years. I would welcome a better one if you could produce it. 

Up
3

A maths student with a little understanding of the constants on the data points could have extrapolated forwards on those graphs by hand with the same accuracy for this time period.

Up
3

This maths student would also understand that the early part of an exponential looks like an extrapolation but the end result is very different.

Up
3

We are still in the "exponential" phase with too much noise to know if we have inflected anything. Of course it's not exponential. For example, you would expect diminishing gains in food and services per capita and you might choose to level off to an asymptote.

Up
3

It was run with various parameter-alterations, including 'double resources' (two planet's worth; what I call the Avatar scenario).

As pointed out up-thread, it didn't buy much time.

And for a math-savvy person, you make an interesting assumption (that the parameters are designed to ...). No, they very emphatically weren't 'designed to' anything. Yes, they were rounded (but exponential growth renders that, inconsequential). But no; they assembled the data, then ran it through various scenarios. One avoided collapse - but remember it was written 50 years ago, when there were south of 4 billion, consuming a lot less, and with a lot less accumulated pollution.

Up
2

Where is the original (or updated) forecast graph with actual numbers overlaid ? Without that I can't be sure the predictions of collapse 'next week' isn't politically motivated. 

You can't yell Fire in a crowded picture theater until you see the smoke. 

Up
4

But you can design the theatre with good exits and fire suppression systems as you know a fire will happen at some point in the future

Up
2

That's true and I agree the theater may well catch fire in our lifetime. I have arranged my lifestyle accordingly.

But pdk has written this article to shout that the theater is smoking and will burst into flames tomorrow.  Myself and others are rightfully challenging him to give evidence we are actually at the inflection point on the LtG graph above. It looks like he can't. 

Up
2

Plug in a 'billion times resources' to match the resources we have within the Solar System, no longer arbitrarily confining the solution to being planet bound.  The equation runs out to more time than there has been in all of humanity's recorded history.  

Up
1

This in a world where the reality is that we've chucked a few people as far as our moon, expending copious amounts of energy to do so.

50 years ago, and haven't been back there since.

Yet these deluded types think we can access? Bring home? Take ourselves? Yet suggest that they go live in the Sahara (same atmosphere, same gravity) and they'd run a mile. Belief comes in many forms

Up
0

The KPMG paper shows BAU Resources starting lower than the other scenarios Also the style for Resources and Food are the reverse to the other scenarios Doesnt inspire confidence

Up
0

I think you need to delve deeper.

:)

Read what she said .....

Up
0

Getting some pretty strong Thomas Malthus vibes from this. The Dr Graham Turner graphic is interesting. Would love to see the scale on that. Food production in particular seems to be significantly above the predicted level (Same issue Malthus ran into, technological innovation enables us to extract more value from the same level of energy)

 

 

Up
3

Exponential growth, coupled with diminishing returns.

So: Enabled. not enables.

The latter assumes permanence, where there is none to be had. Somewhat like economics.....

Up
2

Has efficiency led to a fall in total energy usage?

Up
2

Interesting discussion.  Have a look at this chart (scroll down first chart titled: World Population Growth, 1700-2100) from Our World in Data.

See the sudden, exponential growth that occurred between 1900 and 1950?  To be more exact - around 1930?

What might have happened there to cause that spike?

Any ideas?

 

Up
1

That's an increase in rate. The growth, being exponential, is still numerically more now per year, than it was then.

I'm assuming it was the accumulation of several things; The application of fossil energy to food-production (that was the tractor-boom; Minneapolis-Moline, Cletrac, Lanz, Fordson, all those. The dustbowl was a direct result, shortly after). The overrun of large-family thinking, past medical and civic sanitation improvements. And maybe a need to replace (both physically and emotionally) those lost in WW1 and the Flu. And the physical displacement of wearying toil by fossil energy, maybe, leaving folks more time to? (although folk have always seemed to make time to...).

The UN - indeed most - get population projections wrong. They must be factoring-in a curtailment of food-production or something, because:

"I do just want to point out that if the current rate of global reproduction continues.... by the end of this century there will be 28 billion of us"

The quote is from Stephen Emmott's book: 10 Billion    and well worth it's cheap purchase, Kate. A real thought-provoker, you should have several on hand to loan out....  So presumably they're factoring in reasons that nearly 20 billion mathematically-projected organisms won't happen.

 

 

Up
1

I wondered whether it might have been influenced by the Haber-Bosch process?  They received a Nobel prize in 1918 for it - then another in 1931 for improvements to the manufacturing process.  Growth in fertilizer consumption and growth in food production track on nearly the same trajectory (1960-2006) - whereas land-use for agriculture has remained quite static.  

I have read a number of articles about fertiliser losing its effectiveness;

https://sustainablog.org/articles/global-fertilizer-use-diminishing-ret…

I included the earlier graphic in a lecture on population, migration and globalisation - will send you a copy of it.

Will look up the book!  Cheers. 

 

Up
1

Yes - I would include that in ' the application of fossil energy to food'.

Indeed, we can argue that fossil energy really added acres, by mining long-buried sun-drenched ones.

It's one of the questions of the future; food without fossil energy?

Up
2

Agreed - it's a scary prospect.

Up
1

You can make hydrogen and ammonia from a nuclear power plant. We aren't going to run out of urea. So don't be scared!

 

 

 

Up
1

There's not a word in this I don't agree with, especially the population bit, but there are simply far to many of us. But PDK avoids a bigger question, understandably as the paper is not about it. Politics. It is not a question of what we as a country can do about it, because our own contribution is less than 1% of the world's, but how does the rest of the world get convinced in unison that they must all do something? The UN has tried it in Paris and Kyoto to what effect? 

Most of the comments here are about detail, but this problem has four dimensions or more and without the whole world including the Xi's and Putin's MUST draw back and fully change their ambitions, perspectives and cultures to put the changes in place to make this happen. Otherwise PDK's article is just a portent of our path to personal destruction.

Up
1

I gave you an up-tick, but for the first part.

We ALL need to draw back and reduce our ambitions (it's going to happen to us anyway, best done preparedly). You and I have lived in the cohort which drew-down more than any ever has, and to which they merely wish to belong.

:)

 

Up
2

Cheers PDK. I'm not arguing that we as a nation should not do anything (although I do believe that how we're going about it is wrong). What I am saying is unless EVERYBODY gets on board at the same time - we're screwed!

Up
2

And this is why we will end up in collapse. How do you persuade every country to dial it back when not dialling it back gives them an advantage?

Up
4

Thanks again for the article PDK. I am always grateful for your reminders to pull my head out of the immediate and look at the bigger picture.

Up
6

James Shaw's interview was a bit of a train wreck on Q+A this morning - then followed by David Seymour who did a much better job.  .Well worth a watch if you missed it. 

Up
1

I watched it, and had the opposite impression. Jack Tame made the mistake of highlighting previous act leaders denial of climate hange, when, he should have brought up Seymour's more recent spoutings. Less radical, but still  totally opposite the tripe he was spouting today. Total hypocrite.

Up
1

I never bother with TV, but Shaw's problem is that he is peddling a falsehood.

You expect falsehood from Act - it was why they were born; to tell others they would catch up, while shafting them (aided and abetted by 'growth is good'-spouting media).

But you expect somewhere near the truth from environmentalists, and Green was born upon that assumption. The trouble is, that the Marama/rainbow current version of the Greens..... is socialist, not environmental. Culturally-focused, not science-focused.

Unfortunately, Left, Right, Maori, straight, bent, European-derived, rich, poor - as a whole, are overshot. And even with perfect equity, that remains true; equilibrium for 8 billion is probably below traditional Australian Aboriginal consumption-rates.

Shaw should have told the truth.

Up
0

Jack Tame's point to James Shaw was - you've been the Minister for Climate Change for five years and our emissions are still growing.  And most of the grants given to date ($25m in the monitoring report) in that Climate Emergency Response Fund relate to emissions reduction initiatives.- and it ain't making a difference yet.  

Up
1

Shaw did tell the truth, but he told it way too nicely.( In my view, he should have walked back into the studio,and punched Seymour in the head).

He basically said, though he is climate minister, his policy is always what the majority party of the time will allow.obviously, it doesn't go anywhere near as far as he would like it to. That is why many in the green party think they are better off out of govt, they feel free to criticize the govt more .  OTOH, he takes the blame for all that opponents think is wrong with the legislation.  Someone on here blamed him for allowing non polluters to buy credits, that was the national party that insisted on that " market" solution.

I do agree the green party needs a more rural, practical input. Fitzsimmons was probably the last one asa MP, and reportedly very frustrated re the current state. unfortunately, the rural greens seem to be fractured over single issues like GMO.

Acts" climate solutions " are to have MPs fly less( obviously checked Thier MPs fly the least first), and to allow wood products to be counted as at on credits. That's it. They mention climate change 3 times in Thier policy, one of them is the heading. Seymour has pitched himself as the one who will ensure nothing is done, shamelessly to farmers and business, and to all deniers.i have no doubt by election time he will be ignoring the recent emergencies, whilst criticising the government's recovery efforts.

 

Up
0

Yes, taking a few Ministerial positions under a cooperation agreement with a majority government was a dumb idea.  I suspect James Shaw can now see the Minister for Climate Change portfolio was always a convenient hospital pass for Labour. Winston Peters had power/influence because Labour was a minority government and he was in Cabinet.  

Jack Tame asked James Shaw what the "formula" for managed retreat should be. And given he isn't in Grant Robertson's core group working on the cyclone disaster recovery - it was the perfect opportunity for the Greens to demonstrate they had a policy for managed retreat.  But they didn't - James just explained it was a part of his future work under the Climate Adaptation Act.

Sorry - to my mind, just not good enough.

Here's a formula I've been thinking about:

(Price paid for property plus CPI since purchase) less insurance (if any) less EQC payout for land = balance to be covered by central government.

I just hope they don't go down the track of either market or ratable values as the basis for a payout.  Price paid + CPI per annum since purchase means the taxpayer paying the balance is not picking up unrealised capital gains.  Additionally everyone affected (if you base it on purchase price) ought to be able to pay off the balance of their mortgage.  There may not be much left over, but it's much better than the debt you might have following you once you've left the property behind.

Up
0

He said they wanted to tailor solutions to local conditions in consultantion with local communities , because each location is a different set of circumstances. 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/131108992/greens-james-shaw-l…

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/484641/green-party-floats-windfall…

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/466103/dealing-with-climate-change…

 

 

 

Up
0