By Chris Trotter*
Around midday on Sunday (31/10/21) Auckland City Councillor, Josephine Bartley, tweeted. “Anti vax now turning violent smashed shop front of our local pasifika provider here in Panmure after our successful community vax yesterday and the online abuse they been receiving unacceptable.”
Half an hour later, the Councillor tweeted again. “Oh boy pacific leaders turning up here angry that’s not helpful. Just waiting on police and have sorted business association for camera footage. I know we have strong anti vax movement here in my area but what we don’t want is for this to become violent and for retaliation.”
The vandalism in Panmure came just a day after an estimated 5,000 anti-vaxxers staged an impromptu march from the Auckland Domain to Newmarket and back. Clearly, the maintenance of social cohesion in Auckland is fast becoming a critical issue for the authorities as the Covid-19 Delta Outbreak intensifies across New Zealand’s largest city.
The biggest concern for the political and law enforcement agencies should not, however, be the behaviour of the anti-vaxxers – deeply concerning though that may be – but how much anti-vax provocation the vaccinated majority is prepared to tolerate. No matter how ugly the anti-vaxxers get, any kind of co-ordinated backlash from the vaccinated is bound to get uglier.
Seized with all the passion of true believers, the anti-vaxxers have yet to demonstrate any awareness of this acute vulnerability. There are a number of reasons for this. Not the least of which is that the communities from which they draw their energy and (mis)information are virtual – not real.
Without social-media, the anti-vaxxers would be unable to escape the reality of their isolation from the broader society’s shared understanding of the Covid-19 crisis and its remedies. Prior to the arrival of the Internet, it required considerable fortitude for a single citizen, or tiny group of citizens, to challenge the accepted wisdom of the overwhelming majority. Human-beings do not like to live outside the social embrace. Ostracism is a terrible punishment.
With social media, however, it is possible for individuals to join communities in which their dissident views are echoed enthusiastically by every member. The natural safeguards against making oneself a social outlier, with all the risks which, historically, marginalising oneself incurs, are simply over-ridden by the twenty-first century’s astonishing communications technology. When everyone you talk to reads the same thing, and believes the same thing, then your outlier status is concealed and your outré convictions strengthened.
This misapprehension of reality is aggravated by the fact that so much of the anti-vaxxers’ world view is bound up with the notion that those who reject their ideas are not simply mistaken, but malevolent. That so many people share a completely different understanding of what is going on in relation to Covid-19, and what to do about it, is taken as proof of the monstrousness of the global conspiracy of which the virus is but one part. Far from seeing themselves as the deluded victims of disinformation, the anti-vaxxers regard themselves as an heroic minority of truth-tellers. Some go further, describing themselves as “purebloods”. What does that makes the rest of New Zealand society? Zombies?
The problem this poses for the Police is enormous. Although the percentage of hard-core anti-vaxxers may be very small, when manifested in flesh and blood, on the streets of Auckland, even a small percentage can take on an extremely menacing aspect. Five thousand anti-vaccination protesters, many of them vociferously anti-government, have the potential to do a lot of damage: to private property; to their vaccinated fellow citizens; and – not least – to the Police themselves.
There has been much criticism of Police Commissioner, Andrew Coster, for appearing to “do nothing” about obvious and egregious violations of the Level 3 Covid-19 regulations. In the eyes of those Aucklanders who have done everything they were asked to do: stay at home; social distance; wear masks; get vaccinated; the inaction of the Police in the face of anti-vaxxer defiance is intolerable. Many cannot help feeling that the likes of “Bishop” Brian Tamaki and his Destiny Church are laughing in their faces. Why aren’t the Police getting stuck in?
The surprisingly forthright answer of the Health Minister, Andrew Little, when questioned on this matter by Q+A’s Jack Tame was: “Because you can’t arrest 5,000 people.” The Minister is quite correct, and this is Coster’s dilemma. Taking even 500 protesters into custody would require a Police operation of unprecedented scale. The Police Commissioner simply does not command the human and material resources needed to mount such an operation. And, even if he did, he would be most unwise to do so.
The level of craziness in the anti-vax movement is such that an aggressive Police response would, almost certainly, spark a ferociously violent reaction from the hard core anti-vaxxers. Coster will be very anxious to avoid the sort of running battles between protesters and riot cops that took place on the streets of Melbourne for three straight days.
Not the least of these worries would be straightforwardly tactical. To arrest and detain a fully-grown human-being who is behaving aggressively requires at least two – more likely three or four – police officers. Unwilling to deplete their on-the-ground strength by ordering such mass arrests, Police commanders will resort to tactics designed to immobilise and/or disperse violent protesters. Pepper-spray, tear gas, rubber bullets, truncheons: all of these riot-control weapons were deployed in Melbourne. It ain’t a pretty sight.
What’s more, it doesn’t work. Escalation of force on the part of the Police, simply begets escalation of force on the part of the protesters. Whatever moderation remaining among the leadership of Auckland’s anti-vaxxers would be shunted aside by hard-core extremist elements – many of them Pentecostal Christians convinced they are on the eve of the Battle of Armageddon. Better by far to let 5,000 people let off a bit of steam by marching from the Domain to Newmarket and back again, than to have at least some of them running down Queen Street smashing windows and beating up cops.
All well and good, but for how long are people like Councillor Bartley and her Pasifika constituents supposed to put up with abusive and threatening phone-calls and the vandalising of vaccination clinics? If conscious law-breaking is not met with a decisive Police response, then it will increase. All that is ever required to bring out the absolute worst in human-beings is a rising level of confidence that their actions will not bring consequences.
If it becomes clear to Police commanders (and one hopes that Police Intelligence is in a position to advise them) that such voices of moderation as could be counted on among the anti-vaxxers are no longer being heeded, and that even in the absence of heavy-handed policing extremist violence is about to escalate –– then all bets must be considered off.
*Chris Trotter has been writing and commenting professionally about New Zealand politics for more than 30 years. He writes a weekly column for interest.co.nz. His work may also be found at http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com.
172 Comments
Were all of the 5000 anti-vax? From what I am hearing there is a growing anti-lockdown sentiment in Auckland that includes people who initially agreed with the government response, but they are now feeling increasingly abandoned and desperate.
With any mass protest there will be a minority who takes things too far, but this should not be used to condemn those exercising their right to peaceful protest.
I am double jabbed and pretty annoyed with the government.
A lot of people seemed annoyed with the government, and governments can be troublesome, but it's misdirected. We can see from overseas example that getting restrictions removed without issue is no easy feat.
NZ is kind of an outlier as we've never had a large, lethal outbreak. Most other places don't have a choice and are making decisions for different reasons.
People wanted a travel bubble with Australia ASAP and look where that got us.
I agree with you to a point. I was pro-lock down at the start, and I also disagreed with the travel bubble happening prior to vaccination. I had little sympathy for the crowd at the time of the first two protests.
But what about the unintended consequences. Isolation has caused psychosis rates to rise in many countries, kids are missing education and families are losing their livelihoods. We are also creating a timebomb of secondary illness (when we do open up) as we have had 2 years without exposure to other respiratory diseases such as RSV, many young children will have little or no immunity to these.
Most people who want to be vaccinated will have done so by now, the government should set a date and allow us to get on with life.
If only it were as simple as setting a date and getting on. Its a nice idea, a definable point in time where we feel the dark days are behind us.
Life is probably going to keep being inconvenient and economically perilous for us for a fair while longer yet. The government are making decisions that are weighing up political, health and economic factors, and they have various consequences.
Maybe we could have a referendum instead, to decide what level of human collateral we all find acceptable in exchange for our own personal liberties.
"Maybe we could have a referendum instead, to decide what level of human collateral we all find acceptable in exchange for our own personal liberties"
This garbage. We do this all the time. There's plenty of Kiwis going without potentially life-changing expensive cancer and chronic disease treatments because they cost too much. We could have zero road deaths if the speed limit was 0, but we accept that's dumb as hell. We have people dying from preventable illnesses caused by our shitty housing stock. Again, apparently acceptable.
This hand-wringing over 'how many lives are acceptable' shit is totally irrelevant, we make that choice every day. But if you want an actual number, lets go with... 47 people. Now can the people who have been jabbed and who are compliant have their lives back please?
Everyone has had the chance to be vaccinated and we have reached the margin where only the crazies and staunch anti-vaxxers are left. I agree entirely that the State makes commercially based decisions on health provision that directly affect the mortality of it's residents every day.
It's time to open up, it's getting embarrassing. Some friends just announced they are moving to Australia so they can travel and visit kids there and UK, they could wait no longer. They are taking a lot of tax revenue with them.
It is abundantly clear the dilemma is nor being caused by an arbitrary “90%” as touted but by the anxiety, panic if you like, over hospital capacity. While 90% is “estimated’’ to provide sufficient relief, it does not guarantee it. What is by far the most important indicator is hospital admissions, and numbers in wards, and the serious case amongst that. At the moment that as an indicator is looking pretty positive as those numbers are remaining steady. If this continues then NZ should be able to safely relax restrictions.
NSW opened 3 weeks ago, not only have cases continued to fall but so have deaths. We have probably done more than any other nation to protect our citizens and residents from Covid, however the cost of isolation and lockdowns is now greater than the benefit - both in lives lost and disrupted and economically.
Time to open.
I agree wholeheartedly. It is getting seriously embarrassing. Most of my friends overseas think that NZ Government's position now is utter lunacy.
Moreover, some Kiwi businesses are starting to lose market share overseas as they cannot ensure adequate presence, while the rest of the world is opening up. I can give a couple of examples that I know personally. This madness has to stop before permanent damage is done to the fabric of the NZ economy.
You said "the State makes commercially based decisions on health provision that directly affect the mortality of it's residents every day" - this is 100% correct: Pharmac, for example, must work within a pretty limited budget and they must make life or death decision every time they consider whether to fund a potentially life-saving new drug. How much is every week of lockdown costing the country ? How many lives could have been saved by using this money to properly fund Pharmac instead ? What is going to be the ultimate cost in NZ lives of this lockdown, in terms of delays in people receiving surgery and/or getting medical screening ?
This Government is claiming that they are taking a health-first approach, while in reality they are actually taking a slightly obsessive Covid-first approach. It is a TOTAL health approach that they should rather be taking. It seems like this Government is departing from basic common sense.
Beware the law of unintended consequences. How many child deaths from RSV would you find acceptable? The longer we stay isolated the worse this will be.
Re your comment about 'human collateral'; consider how you would feel if you or one or some of your children were those 'human collateral'. Is this then still acceptable?
I suggest that people who make comments about accepting collateral damage only do so from the perspective of belief that they will not be counted amongst that damage.
You seem to misunderstand my point. Covid can kill people but so can many other things. We now have a vaccine for Covid and the vaccination rate of over 70s (highest risk group) is very high, we have had one death in the current outbreak, out of all of the infected people going through MIQ only one died. Of course if you are related to these individuals it is a personal tragedy, but we are at a point where the health risk from other diseases and the toll on mental heath could outweigh the risks from Covid. Do you live in Auckland?
Most of my family live in the UK. They think we are mad. Have you seen the crowds at Premier league matches. 75% of UK kids have been exposed to the virus including the kids of many of my friends and family. They are fine.
NZ is different, no other country has opened up with a vaccination rate as high as NZ now has, we are not the Italy or UK of two years ago.
There is a difference between getting restrictions removed and getting a level 3 lockdown removed. Apparently it is safe to go to red once Manuaku gets to 90% in like 5 weeks time, but not when Auckland gets to 90% in 2 weeks and Manukau is at 87%. Hey it's only another 3 weeks of soul destroying business busting lockdown right?
With any mass protest there will be a minority who takes things to far, but this should not be used to condemn those exercising their right to peaceful protest.
This is true of any democratic society, but you can't really blame Trotter for suggesting otherwise. He's simply pushing the narrative which any journo needs to push at present if they want to preserve their career; namely that unvaccinated people are to be vilified, marginalised, and most importantly of all, feared.
Don’t forget that at the outset of Covid NZ was ranked by the WHO near to bottom in term of pandemic preparedness. We undoubtedly still are give little enhancement has been achieved in improved hospital capacity. History of that precedes this government certainly but covid has laid bare the deficiency and that is exactly why NZ is restricted, whereas other countries that suffered disastrously, are now moving out and on. Therefore surely this government should be announcing budgetary plans to lift NZ’s hospitals etc out of this dangerous level of predicament, as a priority rather than $ billions on a questionable rail installation. Ask the people, what they would prefer, an accessible professional hospital or a train trip from an airport.
We must be watching different footage, it seems the angriest ones I see on TV are the ZB fanatic white boomers who have little to contribute beyond calling Ardern a 'communist'.
Unless you're making some sort of assumption that everyone there was brown skinned? IDK that seems kind of racist.
Ongoing restrictions are a fool's errand now - what are we actually trying to achieve at this point? Blaming people is pointless.
The irony is, we went from Level 4 to Level 3 partly because compliance was diminishing. Therefore, the public should continue to disobey rules so that they are relaxed further. That seems like the only way out of this shit, because the government are so risk averse that they won't lead the way.
I think they are concerned at the low rates of vaccination among Maori and how once we open up, what ensues could almost look like genocide. I do think we have to throw everything at getting as many Maori vaxxed as we possibly can, but at the same time acknowledging that no, we can't keep this up forever.
I looked at the NZ government stats on hospitalisation between ethnic groups. It looks to me that in percentage terms there is no difference in terms of risk between Pakeha and Maori. Pasifica do seem to be at a higher risk than both Maori and Pakeha. I would hope that all groups would have had the opportunity to get vaccinated by now.
Percentage of cases ending in hospitalisations by ethnicity: Maori 5.7%, Pakeha/European 6.3%, Pasifica 10%.
It's not about who is and who isn't more or less susceptible, it's about who is and who isn't vaccinated.
That Maori lag behind Pasifika is simple on one hand, Pasifika tend to be in clustered, making them easier to access, and on the other, there is a lot of suspicion among many Maori. We are finally coming to the understanding that a lot needs to be done to remedy this situation, but that is best done with the living.
I agree with your comments. You put it across in a much clearer way than we see in the media. I have read stories claiming that Maori are more vulnerable to Covid based on what happened with Spanish flu in 1918. The statistics of the current outbreak do not suggest that. However it is clear that the unvaccinated are at a higher risk of hospitalisation and therefore encouraging Maori vaccine uptake is good thing.
Just a side note, you don't have to say "I am double-jabbed" when you want to express you support to some group of people (even if that group is for some reason (most likely wrongly) called the "anti-vaxers"). The fact that you are expressing some sort of "appology" just means you are afraid to be associated to that group, you should not be...
It is not meant as an apology. I studied the science and balance of risks in my age group and chose to get vaccinated. I have friends who choose not to be vaccinated, I have no problem with that, it is their choice. I am also sceptical of the need to vaccinate under 12s or give more than one dose to under 15s, the stats don't justify it. We seem to have lost the ability to have nuanced debate and are forced into pro or anti positions. Truth is often found in the middle ground.
Anti vaccine mandate does not equal anti vax. I am the first but not hte second, and I'd not be surprised if a lot (not most) of those in that protest were similar. The issue is there is no good way to protest the government's overreach at the moment apart from quitting your job (if it's in a mandated area), which shoots you and your dependents in the foot. That in itself is troubling.
I am vaccinated as are most people I know. I'm not pro vax or anti vax per se, but more pro choice. These people have made their choice and that is fine by me. What that means however is that they should no longer be holding the country hostage, Auckland in particular. Time to open everything back up like normal, set a date.. one of the few things I can agree with Judith Collins on.
From what I have seen the response from the vaccinated people in Auckland is they are just getting on with it, level 3 means nothing now. Visiting friends or family at their house is back to normal from what I have seen in my groups, as long as everyone is double jabbed. As is birthday drinks with friends etc. These are all people who were very compliant until about 1 month ago. No one give a f*** anymore.
When you say 'holding the country hostage'.... you forget one small thing. It is the government that is holding all of you to ransom that believe what the good PM is telling you, only to turn aorund and say something entirely different a few days or weeks later. So, it may sound a little silly to call 'anti-vaxxers' who are not really anti-vaxxers, now violent anti-vaxxers...
One interesting little anecdote. At my workplace, we had a positive Covid case last week. Didn't feel well at all on Tuesday, called in sick and went for a test. Result came back only Thursday afternoon! Of course we all have to rush and get tested, and we ended up with another 2 guys being positive by Friday. All but 2 people vaccinated out of 20+ staff. Guess who the positive cases were? Yes, you are right, the vaccinated... :) But hey, lets not have some good facts get in the way of a 'mandate the 'vaccine' story! And what's even funnier, the boss can't see the wood for the trees, still thinks that last hold outs should get the shot, because the vaccine is working oh so well. How bad can cognitive dissonance really get?
Agree. It was worth waiting until Auckland was at say 85% vax instead of 70% just because it would only be another 2 weeks and our health system isn't as good as theirs. But each DHB getting to 90%, which means Auckland could be up around 94% before we get out of level 3 is a massive difference to Australia and it is very hard to justify. Every single fear mongering NZ "expert" has turned out to be wrong: our hospitals are not full, we didn't need a Level 4 circuit breaker, our Covid death rate is pretty much 0. Why the government listen to any of them is beyond me, especially coming into summer and out of flu season.
Any law that cannot or will not be enforced is not just a waste of time -- but will create massive division in society -- which seems to be this governments intention -- to shame and marginalise those not vaccinated - as if that will be an effective way to change their minds!
1.1 million vaccinated aucklanders watch this -- and think why bother -- after all we are double vaccinated -- let it spread it will only hurt them not us!
Employers - the vast majority of which will be pro vax -- will simply insist that all NEW employees must be vaccinated -- adn where possible - introduce it retrospectively for current employees -- and we will have created a new marginalised group and further marginalised out most vulnerable -- doesnt sound very Labour does it
Here's something to ponder: Even if Auckland moves down (to 3.2?) today, it's still 29 days until the cabinet meeting date named earlier in October, which we'll almost certainly need because CMDHB won't have hit 90% x2 jabs.
So at minimum, another 30 days of this. Compliance in Auckland is torched, the people who have done everything they were asked are fed up with seeing these idiots get away with their shit time and after time at the expense of everyone else.
Frankly, they should just tazer every single one of them. Failing to deal with this has shown everyone what they long suspected: the vocal minority has more power than the compliant masses.
That makes no sense. Why tazer them for having the balls to do something that you want to do, and think is safe to do.
We have gone mad with risk aversion - we're so highly vaccinated now. How long do you want to ban protests for? 90% vax rate? Or will the goalposts shift to 95% and then 99%?
The protesters should do what they like, along with everyone else. It's the only way to break out of this shit.
Not sure it's fair to lump them all as anti-vax.
I think a lot are anti lockdown as it's costing them their businesses, their relationships, and some of them their lives by suicide when the pressure simply gets too much.
NZ should be a free country. The vax is free to get. Eveyone knows about the vax. People have had enough time to get vaxxed. Let them choose. And I suspect this lack of free will / choice is now what's driving the marches.
Maybe more lives have been lost due to collateral damage than covid. And a lot of people have simple had enough.
We were talking in the weekend what the cost per boomer (CPB) is so far since the beginning of Covid. It must be astronomical. Might have freed up some housing too, if it had run rampant. Oh well, guess future generations will keep paying the boomers tab if they can afford it anymore heh.
an aggressive Police response to their protests would, almost certainly, spark a ferociously violent reaction from hard core anti-vaxxers
Pffft! Please, highly doubt that.
1. There are women and children there
2. It's still a peaceful protest. Were there overturned cars? Burning garbage bins? Molotov cocktails?
3. If police cracked down on protestors, it'd be the end of JA's career...
1. You can't appeal to on this basis against people who are actively putting themselves in harms way of a virus during a global pandemic. Can't have that one both ways.
2. No overturned cars, but plenty of chances to spread Covid etc. What does smashed windows and some burnt cars cost you. vs. ongoing lockdown of businesses and separation of families, prolonged by idiots like this?
3. And? These idiots are holding the rest of the country to ransom with their desperate attempts to be victims of some sort of injustice. Refusing to get a free vaccine during a pandemic does not make you Nelson Mandela.
4. We are a democratic country. The rest of us are having their rights curtailed by the actions of these thugs and religious pests - supposedly the thing they care so much about. At some point, some vaccinated people may decide to show up en masse and show these people just how the minority they actually are.
1. I meant the police wouldn't take violent action against a group like that because there are women and children there. Are you saying their presence shouldn't stop the police from taking strong action?
2. Covid can spread despite lockdowns, so alternatives should be looked at, not continued lockdowns. Condemning those who are sick of lockdowns is unjustified. Do you know anyone who loves lockdowns?
3. By that logic, we've all already been held to ransom for the past two months. And making people lose jobs because they refuse to take a vaccine does not make you a hero... There are nuances to content of the protests - they can't all be lumped in together as "crazy anti-vaxxers".
4. "these thugs and religious pests..." That sounds rather intolerant...
and un-democratic if you do not at least make the effort to listen to and understand (not that you have to agree) the minority's POV. Maybe that's why the Maoris still feel they are oppressed and discriminated against...
1. Yes, unless you want to suggest that any law-breaking should be immune from intervention provided they have human shields. The welfare of women and children doesn't seem to matter as far as the global pandmic we're in, so suddenly using it as an appeal to morality is bunk.
2. I don't disagree, but I voice that on forums and in discussions, which I am free to do because we don't live in the tyrannical state that some of these people think we do. Notice how I can dissent without putting people at risk or spreading a disease?
3. We're being 'held to ransom' by people who have been patted on their head and told they're special when they're fundamentally incapable of obeying a basic social contract, like "let's make a communicable disease easier to spread". It doesn't matter what their point is and the virus doesn't care.
4. I have listened, and they have nothing interesting or relevant to say.
Where is early treatment at home being provided by our government? There are plenty available with variable effectiveness and cost Talk with your doctor about what treatments they can provide you here We can all get infected now it seems See https://c19early.com/
There is nothing more terrifying than The tyranny inflicted by true believers empowered with the knowledge that they are in the majority!
Any society that descends into totalitarianism ends up as a example of bad behaviour in the history books New Zealand will be no different.
It is simply irrational to expect the totality of society to agree with you and do what you want, and trying to achieve this outcome will only lead to tyranny.
New Zealand is headed into a dark time where we get to see the true moral character of those around us.
Someone doesn't get it.
It's not anti-vaxxers protesting. It is all sorts now.
Anti mandates (Health, Education, hospitality,hairdressers)
Anti freedom (all sorts both vacc and unvacc)
Anti lockdown (Auckland and Hamilton)
Just generic sick of government's late reactions.
Exactly. I am not anti-vax but if there is a protest in my city I will be joining it. I do not believe in forcing experimental medical procedures on anyone - if you want to take it to avoid getting sick then do so. If you don't want to or you want to wait for another non-experimental vaccine to be produced, fair enough. When 86.5% of adult cases and 82% of deaths in the UK are now in the vaccinated, it is completely anti-science to exclude the tiny minority of unvaccinated people from society when its clearly the vaccinated that is now spreading the disease. I also want to reserve the right in the future to say no to being forced to take booster shots every few months - there is zero evidence as to the long term safety of these mRNA vaccines, let alone what the cumulative effects or damage may be if forced to take multiple shots every year for the rest of your life. If you don't fight for your rights now, you won't have them in the future when you really need them.
Your stats are complete nonsense. Here's the latest offical figures.
stats https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarr…
Fully vaccinated account for 0.8% of the total COVID deaths. mRNA has been around for over thirty years and is as safe as any vaccine can be. I really hope you reconsider your position and your sources.
I am not anti vax, but it does worry me that I can easily find that statistic from a time window where many people hadn't had the vax in the UK, but not a more recent one. Surely it is very easily to sum the daily total deaths divided by the total percentage vaccinated on that day and give a real measure of how well the vaccine is working? Does anyone have that measure?
Actually I'll answer my own question:
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/22/4-charts-show-how-covid-vaccines-are-wo…
For every 100,000 unvaccinated people between the age of 60 and 69 in England, 20 passed away after contracting the virus. Among vaccinated people of the same age group, that number dropped to 4 per 100,000. In people aged 70 to 79, 47 in every 100,000 unvaccinated people died after catching Covid, and in over-80s the rate of death among the unvaccinated was 128 per 100,000. In people aged 18 to 40, 48 deaths from the virus were recorded. Of those, 34 — or 71% — were unvaccinated.
They seem to be picking what statistics suit them. My guess is that the vaccine works OK and does reduce hospitalisations and death, but not to a level that the public would be happy with so it is being hidden as much as possible.
It does not do that exclusively, of course those demographics are low hanging fruit for the virus, but it's not fussy and plenty of younger and healthier people have suffered badly or have died.
Overwhelming the health system is not a mere bagatelle either.
Don't be lulled into any sense of security where this will go once we open up.
We need Maori vax rates up or it will play out badly for them.
That is between 2 January and 2 July 2021 and is very old in Covid information terms! Just like the old data that says Pfizer wanes to 47%. The latest information from Qatar:
Pfizer's Covid vaccine efficacy against infection plunges to just 20% after six months.
Show me the people that were mRNA'd at age 5, thirty years ago please!
Your stats are nonsense. Mine are taken directly from this weeks UK report.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-surv…
In the last report, of 7705 adults in hospital, 2240 were unvaccinated. Of the 3496 adults that died, 624 were unvaccinated.
You need to look at Table 5: Unadjusted rates of COVID-19 infection, hospitalisation and death in vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.
And even then I think this is a fair note:
There are likely to be systematic differences in who chooses to be tested and the COVID risk of people who are vaccinated. For example: • people who are fully vaccinated may be more health conscious and therefore more likely to get tested for COVID-19 • people who are fully vaccinated may engage in more social interactions because of their vaccination status, and therefore may have greater exposure to circulating COVID-19 infection • people who are unvaccinated may have had past COVID-19 infection prior to the 4-week reporting period in the tables above, thereby artificially reducing the COVID-19 case rate in this population group, and making comparisons between the 2 groups less valid
I am not very happy with the UK or many other government statistics. But please have a look at the public health report for Scotland.
Link: https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/9908/21-10-27-covid19-publication_report.pdf
Page 51 and further allows to compare the vaccination status in relation to infection, age, mortality.
E.g. in the week of 16th to 22nd of October 0,33% of the unvaccinated population got infected and 0,29% of the fully vaccinated population.
As they ought to be. Its not very nice when you do the right thing and get vaccinated. Yet the government still doesn't allow you to open your business to trade or your kids to go to school. Instead they set these ridiculous vaccine targets & you have to "be patient" while all of these stragglers get the vaccine. Further these same government people get paid in full and get to enjoy the freedoms of level 2.
They are a bunch of hypocrites if you ask me. Rules for thee but not for me
These sort of actions by our government will tend to make one depressed and sad.
I dont think they are all anti-vax,the lockdown has made a lot of people angry,even our millionaire knights have got on their high horses about their entitled lives being inconvenienced.I think chris trotter has nailed it,we do have a problem when a rabble of noisy angry people congregate.the potential for a full-blown riot is there.once the mob is formed anything can happen.
Bill of Rights Act, Section 11.
Right to refuse to undergo medical treatment
-
Everyone has the right to refuse to undergo any medical treatment.
The government has no right to compel anybody to take the vaccine that doesn't want it. No matter how misguided or wrong you think they might be, it is still their body and their choice.
If I didnt have small children to care for I would have joined in the anti-lockdown protests on the weekend too. No problems with vaccines, but major problems with Ardern trashing the Bill of Rights and turning everybody against eachother.
Australia is now open and less vaccinated than here. Ardern is a virtue-seeking tyrant.
No one is forcing people at gun-point to get vaccinated FFS.
They are however pointing out there will be consequences for those who do refuse to vaccinate.
As for 'the government has no right'; the BORA is not supreme, Parliament is. The BORA is essentially a formality. Most people who rant about it think it has some sort of huge constitutional weighting. It does not.
No one is forcing people at gun-point to get vaccinated FFS.
The BORA is essentially a formality. Most people who rant about it think it has some sort of huge constitutional weighting. It does not.
That sounds like "Your rights will be protected, but those rights can change according to Parliament"?
No guns are needed these days... Peer pressure, public opinion, cancel culture, mob squads, media shaming, government bureaucracy brought to bear, harassment, etc. will do just fine.
When the choice to vaccinate or not is a community health issue and not just a personal one, then the argument of rights becomes more complex that you are giving it credit for.
You are very welcome to refuse a vaccine treatment. You just can't expect to be risk stratified the same as somebody who has accepted the vaccine given the world data pin the benefits. Make your choice and live with the relative risks and how they are managed.
"Make your choice and live with the relative risks and how they are managed. "
Very true, but few on either side understand risk.
Will those that said no to unvaccinated doctors/nurses treating patients be happy if their loved one could have been saved by the doctor who was sidelined?
Will those that said no to unvaccinated teachers teaching kids be happy if their kid(s) are still at home in 12 months time due to a teacher shortage?
That's the thing about consequences, every action no matter what side of an arguement, has them.
The number of doctors and nurses who are unvaccinated is tiny. Each profession will have a rump of contrarians. These unvaxxed outliers offer as high a risk to their patients as anyone else unvaxxed - about 20+ times more likely to pass on the disease. And maybe more, as they consult with patients with health conditions. I would be more worried about their ability to make proper medical judgements if they are vaccine conspiracy-minded.
The number of teachers of that persuasion will be higher - but then the education standards for teachers isn't as high as for doctors or nurses.
Mandates for health workers are extremely important. And they are equally important for teachers.
True, but given our well documented shortage of health professionals, do we want to run that risk?
We might get away with it in Akld, but looking at TDHB, we have a range of specialists, but usually only one of each. So losing even a single one is going to cause some ripples.
It's a putdown. A way of just being able to put these people in the same category and label them 'nutters'. Once you have done this, then you can hate them. And ignore anything they have to say.
It's the same as calling anyone on the right a Nazi, or anyone on the left a Communist. It's just hyperbolic nonsense.
The left call themselves socialists and communists. People on the right don't self identify as Nazis.
Anybody using the terms 'left' and 'right' are being simplistic anyway. Tyranny loves such lies.
In my experience communists tend to be atheists and are obsessed with their mortality.. it leads to the dementing of their minds and authoritarianism.
Out of fear the public live within the Main-Stream-Media's lies and misrepresentations. This situation has been termed "The Big Lie" and NZ has been living it for a while..
Next step, small business and primary industries shutter.. then NZ starts concentrating people in camps?
So from what i know there was way more than 5000 people. The misinformation fed by the media is AWFUL!
Stop talking about 'anti-vax' protests! It is not about vaccination anymore it is about FREEDOM!
It is AGAINST lockdown and AGINST government that has SICK agenda!
I ask - WHERE IS PM? How come that she could not care less about 1/3 of NZ population!?!?
People WAKE UP - IT IS ABOUT FREEDOM! They are taking it away bit by bit.
I would love to see 100.000 people on the streets and you know what - i will be one of them.
The greatest country to live in the world became unbearable.
Remember - freedoms are not given back - they are are FOUGHT back!
The New Zealand public health response to the Delta resurgence has been hugely different to either NSW or Victoria (broadly similar populations), even though the NZ outbreak started out higher.
https://www.interest.co.nz/sites/default/files/images/akl-vs-nsw-vs-vic…
NSW has had more than 500 Delta deaths, Victoria more than 250. NZ has had 3 (or 2, depending on how you count).
No doubts that lockdown stops covid issues, but what about all the non-covid costs required to maintain that red line, do they not matter now?
- Non-covid related health issues
- Mental heath
- Societal costs (social connections, family, community, enforced division)
- Education and developmental costs (Schooling, kids just being kids)
- Economic (ludicrous stimulation packages, interest rate cuts, these will have ongoing consequences that far outlast covid)
Yes. But we do have that desperately sought after "Inflation!" finally running through the economy(s) at the moment. We do have a collective tens of trillions worth of new debt to be serviced at % rates that daren't go above 0% for fear of global economic collapse, and we do have historical asset price protected by both of those. All at the cost of your points above?
"Never let a good crisis go to waste!"
Chris, I think these protests were organised by the Freedom group, their main objective is NOT ANTI-VAX, BUT ANTI-LOCKDOWN (sure there were anti-vax people in the protests as well). If this is correct the main premise of your article is false.
I find it very annoying that people don't seem make the difference between anti-vax and anti lockdown. Personaly I'm double vaxxed but I'm strongly against lockdown
That's a good point - it is a distinction worth making. I'm pro-vax and frankly pro-lockdown; but that might switch to anti-lockdown if it goes on much longer...
Good article from Chris. I agree that making martyrs would be foolish right now. They're already motivated by paranoia and the belief that they're being oppressed, a heavy-handed response can only make that worse.
Just a side note, you don't have to say "I am double vexed" when you want to express you support to some group of people (even if that group is for some reason (most likely wrongly) called the "anti-vaxers"). The fact that you are expressing some sort of "appology" just means you are afraid to be associated to that group, you should not be...
This group of 5,000 were made up of just not anti-vaxx's but lots of anti-Lockdown protesters.
I take my hat of to them, and had I known I would have gone and joined in myself.
Perspective has been lost in NZ about Covid, Arden is on a power trip, sure there are dangers but the response has been ridiculous, 2 deaths - that's all, one in their 90's.
Auckland is suffocating, Angry and ready to explode.
A date HAS to be set, say 1st Dec, get vaxxed or not, personal decision, move on, let people live again.
I go so far to say that the level of distrust, hate, frustration and general sense of being ignored by the Government deserves a strong protest. Future protests unless there are changes made soon, will make this protest look like a Sunday walk.
Added fuel to this fire is the 3 Waters issue, where 90% of the councils around NZ are being ignored and the Government is going to legislate to get their own way, this is Socialism, forcing NATIONLISATION of the existing water network.
I support protests given all the stupidity that this Government has caused, is causing and ignores.
1,000's of people are missing operations and medical care they urgently need.
Lets be honest, if the government had actually poured some of the billions into building special centers for covid patients to take them out of mainstream hospitals then people may of had their freedoms a lot sooner The frustration is out of this governments complete lack of rolling any policy out quickly and efficiently. Remember when it was at least 6 weeks between Jabs, now 3. That was because they had not ordered enough vaccines.
Those opposing lockdowns cannot automatically be labelled "anti-vax".
This is simply shifting the blame of the protests onto those who freely decide what medical treatment they recieve.
The author thereby seeks to further demonize those who do not wish to be injected with a "provisional" or "experimental" vaccine.
People oppose lockdowns for many reasons, many of those will be blue collar labour voters who can no longer put food on the table for their families. What do the the chardonnay socialists say to that? Let them eat cake?
This piece is worth three times as much as this CT opinion
At least some of these protestors are simply fed up with a government that doesn't seem to have a handle on what they are doing as regards an exit strategy for the Delta variant but still seem happy to place everyone, including businesses, under lock and key whilst they figure it out. This morning the PM is quoted as saying she thought the case numbers "might peak" as high as 200 a day by next week. Jacinda, Covid is here to stay (despite the elimination strategy) and case numbers can only ever keep rising with the only defense for the sensible being vaccination. I think 200 per day will look pretty moderate by the end of this month.
How is it possible for 200 cases a day to be our peak? We have almost as many people in NZ and a similar vax rate to Singapore, who are now doing 5000 cases a day. That "might" be the peak. The most vaccinated State in the US (Vermont) with a population of 624,000 people and a 90% first vax rate is doing 330 cases a day at the moment.
Said that months ago. Your no longer interested in a case count and testing is a waste of time. What your interested in now is hospital admissions and are they vaccinated or not and by age group. Case numbers are pointless, if I get Covid I will be self isolating at home and not telling anyone. With decent data like that you can tell what risk you have from the get go. This is unlikely to happen from our government as they are vax obsessed and anyone being able to work out their own personal risk profile is not allowed.
Actually, on reflection, the case 'numbers' could possibly peak at 200 per day if people continue to not get tested. I don't know if Jacinda really thinks that the numbers being reported are actually the number of Covid cases we have because they sure as anything aren't. They are simply the number of people that have fronted up to be tested and have then been found to have Covid. The whole reason why the virus will continue to expand in the community is because so many people are not bothering to get tested and so are continuing to spread it as unknown sources. Then again, I guess even if a lot of these people did get tested as positive then they would probably not self isolate anyway.
Lies and smear to kick off with Chris. You seriously need to examine your own cognitive blind spots and biases.
The protests in the Domain are mainly against lockdowns - the authoritarian and disproportionate nature of the government response. I'm double vaccinated and looking to attend the next one, masked and safely.
Don't worry the 4pm press conference will start off with a big telling off for all those naughty AKL's. Followed by a continued LD as case numbers increase, followed by an announcement that they review the LD in two weeks time, followed by a last telling off for everyone and that you need 90% vax.
You might enjoy this then: https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1454500983791407108?s=20
Well if this isn't a good reason to keep the rest of us law abiding citizens with some shred of common sense locked up in AL3, I don't know what is.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-cabinet-set-to-re…
I sure can see why civil disobedience is brewing, what with incoherent rules imposed by idiots and with those causing the problems not interested in partaking in any form of social responsibility. Seems to me to be fairly clear, that Govt has now well and truly lost the room - I can now see many Aucklanders thumbing their noses at the 'rules' and going about their business, in complete defiance.
Well, if those people who took part in the protest are 'anti-vaxxers' then so am I. Despite everyone in our household having every jab they have ever needed to.
Calling them anti-vaxxers is just a convenient label to give them. It means "Stupid person who doesn't listen to science. Uneducated thicko whom we should deride". All in one convenient 2 word label.
What should we call people who uniformly, unquestioningly follow every single directive the government gives them? I think 'sheep' would be a good label. That's what sheep do isn't it? Follow along like amoeba?
So it's the 'anti-vaxxers' vs the 'sheep'. The mainstream media (on the 'sheep' side) can thank me later.
Good old clueless Trotter.... spilling verbal garbage like fertilizer
Couldn't recognize an ENERGY crisis dressed as as a Health scandemic if it knocked him down with a cricket bat....
From here, expect
1) more lockdowns and restrictions
2) an amazing new variant!!.. which requires lockdowns ...
3) Boosters!!!! Its the only way to freedom.... honest!
Hmmm…I was a no jab, no jobber. Now I’m not so sure. Ideally everybody would do the right thing, but of course they won’t, and they won’t see it as the right thing, either. The huge problem is, is that it is a massive erosion of liberty and a very dangerous precedent. The vaccine is very safe, but not 100% safe, and yes, it’s safer than catching Covid. But if you are young and fit, you could argue that the natural immunity you will get after catching it will be more effective and a safer bet, too. That’s not my argument, so don’t attack me. My concern is at the extension of Statism, the sort of thing we’re also seeing with Three Waters and He Puapua. There was no mandate for these, yet they are being forced on us.
Although I doubt crazy socialist Chris Trotter has ever read a scientific article, evidence now indicates that "all cause mortality" has risen in highly vaccinated countries:
http://kathydopp.info/COVIDinfo/Vaccines/COVIDdeathRateIncrease2021.
There has been an alarming rise in myocarditis, which is probably causing this rise. And why would anyone Kiwi woman, with a virile BF, take an mRNA vaccine when it has not been tested ON ANY HUMAN OR ANIMAL for a full term of pregnancy? The spike protein accumulates in the ovaries. Certain batches have very high death rates. The only crazy person is Mr Trotter.
Today, Bloomfield and Hitler claimed low Delta death rates were caused by vaccination. No, these low rates are caused by an infection fatality rate for Covid of 0.1% ie lower than the flu (J Ionnaidis).This science grad humbly asks for Bloomfield to be stripped of his degree.
Sure its been tested on Humans, its now being tested on millions of them. Short term side effects not looking to bad, I mean if people were dropping like flies then it would be all over social media and unstoppable. Long term side effects ? nobody knows and they cannot claim to know either because it has not been out there for years. While its unlikely that 2023 will be World War Z, you never know, get your baseball bat now, be quick.
Sunchap you wouldn’t recognise a reputable scientific article if you fell over it.
What a joke - claiming the moral high ground of being a “science grad” when you forever push Ivermectin as an alternative yet it has never been backed up with any reputable scientific trial.
Keep up with your misinformation and conspiracy theories. Pathetic.
Wow. Thanks for submitting a great list of scientific research to rebut mine.
Mass vaccination is actually driving a massive resurgence in Covid cases in many countries. (For example, Israel's cases are now twice as high as last year.) It appears that this is because the spike protein damages the immune system. The morons at Pfizer based their vaccine on the most dangerous part of Covid, the spike.
The research below reveals why we will have high levels of Covid in six months and how the spike protein damages the immune system;
Sunchap as said you wouldn’t know what reputable scientific papers were if you fell over one.
The other day you had an article from Voter GA on Covid. Voter GA is a conspiracy theory and misinformation site that claimed the Dominion Machines were rigged and the “election was stolen” . . . and Kathy Dopp was contributing articles in support of that. Information from either Voter GA or Kathy Dopp have absolutely no credibility.
When you continually put up misinformation and conspiracy theory, then rationale debate is not possible. You need to be critical of the sites you follow and stop believing the rubbish you read.
By the way I see your legal hero Sue Grey is under pressure from the Law Society.
If Biden won, why is his popularity the lowest ever recorded? Election laws were changed in all swing states by Secretaries of State to allow postal voting, when under the US constitution that is a state's jurisdiction...These changes were therefore unlawful and this, combined with the massive election fraud, is why Arizona and Wisconsin will probably soon be decertified.
As with Covid, the media has lied. There is no excess global mortality.
A Johns Hopkins report indicated that the US had no increase in total mortality in 2020; https://libertariannews.org/2020/11/26/study-covid-has-had-no-effect-on….
And as far as I can tell, no one is contradicting the J Ionnaidis IFR of 0.1% for "Western countries";http://biomechanics.stanford.edu/me233_20/reading/ioannidis20.pdf.
To me this logically implies no excess mortality, as it is lower than the flu.
How about these actual facts. The US vaccine adverse reporting system, VAERS, has reported over 16,000 deaths since Covid vaccines came on the market 10 months ago. The FDA has, in the past, banned vaccines when deaths exceeded 50. VAERS has never been questioned by anyone in the media or scientific community before, despite operating for over 30 years.
This massive amount of death gets no coverage in the NZ media, despite it's corroboration by the UK "yellow card" reporting system and EU system.
Just as I suspected, these do NOT represent deaths caused by vaccines they report deaths after being vaccinated, the two things are NOT the same.
Same sort of misrepresentation happening here with MoH information, all of the incidences reported simply mean that something occurred after vaccination, not that vaccination caused it. Some of those things will be more than one thing occurring in one person, you can self report to it. Look out for an article from Dr Siouxsie Wiles explaining this, though with the hair trigger conspiracy culture out there, it could be like trying to nail jelly to a wall.
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