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Alex Tarrant live-blogs from the TVNZ election debate: National's John Key vs Labour's Phil Goff; What do you think?

Alex Tarrant live-blogs from the TVNZ election debate: National's John Key vs Labour's Phil Goff; What do you think?

TVNZ's text poll showed 61% of respondents believed Prime Minister John Key came out of the first TVNZ leaders debate on top of Labour leader Phil Goff (39%).

Who do you think won? What were the most interesting comments/arguments?

The first debate of the election campaign of the two hopeful PM's following the November 26 election was held on Monday night at TVNZ's studios in Auckland.

See a live blog of the debate below.

See John Key's reaction to the debate in the video above.

See Phil Goff's reaction in the video below.

See and compare policies from all parties currently in Parliament here.

See our full Election 2011 coverage here.

Green Party co-leaders Russel Norman and Metiria Turei held their own 'debate' during the Key/Goff encounter, responding to what the two major party leaders said. See it here at the Greens' website.

Key and Goff have both refused to appear on TV debates with the minor parties.

Below is a live-blog from the debate.

6:57pm: I'm at TVNZ's Auckland studios live-blogging while watching the TV One election debate between Prime Minister John Key, and Labour Party leader Phil Goff. It's just about to begin at 7pm

7:03 And we're off. Opening debates. Key sounding brighter than Goff, who takes a much sterner tone than the PM.

7:05: On super age: Goff saying the costs from the doubling of people on Super will mean 10s of billions of dollars of costs to New Zealand over the next few decades.

Goff tells Key he needs leadership and courage now to raise the super age. However, Labour's policy starts the age rising at 2020.

Key retorts by saying Labour's policies would require an extra NZ$17 billion of borrowings over the next four years. Attacks Labour for not giving fully costed policies.

7:09: Key touting Air New Zealand as a good example of the mixed ownership model - the proceeds of which he'll put toward social infrastructure

Goff saying the dividends from the SOEs would help pay for schools. Says govt can only sell them once.

He tells Key he doesn't own the assets, New Zealanders do. Lands a good shot on Key there.

7:13: First ad break - They look like they're trying to ignore each other. Phew. Quite a quick start from them both. Discussed capital gains tax. Goff asked what the good part of the policy was, uses the Sam Morgan selling Trade Me as example of why one is needed. Says it would raise the revenue Key's asset sales are for.

Key retorts by saying Labour's policies would have more taxation, higher interest rates and higher compliance costs for business. Goff retorts to that by saying Key himself raised GST. 

7:20: Goff talking straight at Key - addressing him -  whereas Key talking to Guyon Espiner. Obviously a tactic from Goff to target the PM. 

On cost of living, Key pre-empts Labour's min wage policy, says it a hike to NZ$15 an hour from NZ$13 now would mean small businesses would sack people to deal with the higher costs.

7:24: Goff says Labour not unfriendly to small businesses - says small business owners tell him the problem is that no one is spending because they don't have money in their pockets - need a wage rise.

Key says raising the minimum wage would hurt small businesses due to the extra costs.

7:27: In response to Q from Fran O'Sullivan, Goff says Labour would cut youth unemployment in half in three years.

Key says you couldn't guarantee that. Touts his new 'starting out wage' policy. Says when Labour raises the min wage, young people will become unemployed.

7:30: Second ad break. Goff trying to look relaxed, went off to talk to the audience. Then Key realises, and goes to do the same.

7:33: The reaction from the press room at TVNZ (we're watching a live feed from there) is that Goff's tactic to address Key is working for him.

7:35: Onto welfare now. Tonight a National Party email was mistakenly released outlining plans to get 46,000 people off welfare - announcement tomorrow from Hamilton.

Key says more details tomorrow, says Nats will try to upskill people and make sure there was a vibrant economy. Key touts policy to give spending cards to 16/17 year old mums.

Goff talking about Labour policy to pay young person's dole payments to employer if they take them on as an apprentice.

7:50: Onto the environment and mining. Goff says a disaster from deep sea drilling could wipe out the east coast. Key says NZ would have to have high-level regulations to stop that from happening.

Key here talking up the economic potential from mining - says NZ earned NZ$3.2 billion from its mineral resources last year, while the Aussies earned NZ$177 billion - that's why they're the lucky country.

Key ties mining into being able to provide better jobs. Goff agrees there's a place for mining in New Zealand.

8:05: Few connection probs there - we need some ultra fast broadband...

Onto insurance market in Canterbury now. Goff says govt needs to put pressure on insurance companies to get things moving. Asked about his policy that Labour would step in as a lender of last resort, he says the govt shouldn't be diving in, but backed the policy.

Key says seismic activity still ongoing. Says quake is the biggest economic impact on any developed economy they can find. Says the government's package to buy out red-zone homes was very extensive.

Goff said it wouldn't be enough if the recovery in Christchurch was stalled. 

Moved onto closing the gap with Australia. Key admits there's still miles to go, and that the gap took 30-40 years to get there, so won't be closed immediately. Goff says NZ can't rely on commodities and tourism - touts R&D policy.

8:27: Debate over now. TV One text poll gives Key 61% and Goff 39%. Seems to be a bit of debate about Goff's tactic to address Key directly.

Your view?

We welcome your thoughts on the debate in the comments section below.

We welcome your comments below. If you are not already registered, please register to comment.

Remember we welcome robust, respectful and insightful debate. We don't welcome abusive or defamatory comments and will de-register those repeatedly making such comments. Our current comment policy is here.

79 Comments

Key is ahead - he looks confident and bright. Goff sounds like he s in lecture mode. Joe Blow just wants to know their personal benefit. Labour -- less $$ in my pocket.

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The duopoly put on a good show last night, the media and public seemingly laping it up, and sadly there are many still fooled by the charade.  Oh dear. 

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If your salary is over 75k then you want to keep your tax cuts. If you really in the mortgagebelt then you want BE to keep the pressure on AB to keep. OCR low. The whole global economy is going down regardless of party.

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Hurry up and crash the system already.

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Agree with Key: keep the flag. More important priorities. Flag will only open can of worms - Maori vs Fern etc. Tradition & heritage to UK is good.hyy

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Lose the flag, it's oppressive and empowers one group over others. Still, conversation for another day.

What was with all the blue setting, writing, backing for the programme - I'm picking the Exec's at TVOne are gunning for National?

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Goff looks like a school boy who has been caught doing something unspeakable by the Head Mistress!

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.... it's only young Nats who get caught doing something unspeakable to the Head Mistress !

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Goff should stop reading from a prepared script!  Speak from the heart Mr Goff..

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... but he did speak from the heart .. .. Goofy said that small business owners are friendly to him , and that they want Labour to raise the minimum wage , so that folks will spend more , which will stimulate business ...

Now that little gem couldn't have been scripted , surely .....

....you'd have to be on magic mushrooms or something to come up with 100 % pure-bollocks 'like that ..

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Dorks believe it Gummy!

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cripes your a stirrer GBH ...! ha....ya scamp..!  but you still got to admit Key came off looking like a turd with a spit-polish ...the gloss was there  but the substance was pure excrement.

 really good to see you .....missed the humor....! plus I pissed a coupla people off while you were away.....so eh you know......I nearly started talking to......YKW...how bad is that.

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Hullo Count : Life has gone a tadge topsy-turvy for the Gummy household , lately . In a good way , though . Busy with some projects .. ..  And struggling with a clapped out old computer ( run out of coal for the frigging fire-box ) .

.. .. and getting a smidge jaded by Bernie's constant BB bashing !  .. ..We require some solutions , not an endless " blame game ."

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We getting horrific flashbackss of HelenClark summoned thru zLecturer monotone Goff.

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Am I suprised that these two are the best choice that New Zealanders can be given? Thank goodness we made the descision to be on a plane the day before the election. At least Julia and Tony are skilled at what they do. These two make my old 6th form debating classes look good.

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All the best NA for your new adventure...  

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You know, Iain, you might just be right. But having lived and worked in Oz for over 20 years, and having chosen NZ as a better alternative near another 20 years ago, I have to sadly realise that I made a mistake to leave Oz. Or rather, I made a mistake in believing that NZ would remain a better alternative. Australia may be little better, but having just done a reci there, it's happier; more vibrant and has a air of the future, and hope, about it. NZ has become, well, sad. Tonight's 'debate' summed up most of what has gone awry with what should still be the best place for most people to live. 

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My god, both are BS artists..  

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Goff badgering badly. Key good response on Afghanistan. World is not clear cut.

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Mr Goff, what about the Darren Hugh saga as your big mistake...!  weak weak leader..

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Before a televised debate, a politician's campaign manager gave him some last-minute advice: "If you get a very difficult question, don't answer it directly. Just talk about the dynamic world. That always ends the debate."

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Goff seemed angry to me, and was easily goaded into getting angier.

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yeah -  really needs to attend the same course Mallard went to after smacking Tau

Helen wont be impressed either and I guess theres a few texts on the way

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You think Goff and his team of intellectuals are going to change that?

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Yes I don't see any change happening monetary-system wise unless something happens regarding the Federal Reserve first.

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Yep but none of them will change it. It is only when it comes crashing down that change will be forced. They might even use the coming financial crash as an excuse to bring in a police state / martial law for a while? As you mentioned, it is a mathematical certainty that the world's economic and financial system as it stands will collapse, just a question of when...

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Good read A.J....took an extract below in hope more will use the link. Thanks !

Yes indeed, we are unwell. We drink too much, eat too much, shop too much, take offence too much, get involved in violence too easily, and, well, don’t thinkabout anything much any more. We read piffle in the media, and fail to analyse, criticise, or even care. We do things and accept policies without so much as a moment’s thought being given to the ramifications and dangers. We ridicule those who point out the Emperor’s lack of clothes, and resent those whose far-sightedness has enabled them to escape the consequences of being brain-idle. We award ourselves the suffix ‘sapiens’, but blithely enjoy the sowing while denying the likelihood of reaping.

The word ‘consequences’ is absent from the lexicon of politicians and other senior public officials. They live only for the next meeting, soundbite, interview, split, blackmail, crisis and election they will have to face. The rest of us have learned from this, applying the same Live for Now strategy to our domestic economics, sexual behaviour, ethical decisions, pension arrangements and voting apathy.

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Mum: What makes you think our son will be a Prime Minister? 

Dad: He says more things that sound good and mean nothing than any other boy on the block.

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So both Goff and English were doin' the double dip?

Sheeeesh.

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yeah, they were both doing it, amongst others.  Amazing what arrogance and an overweening sense of entitlement will do to a person's ethics.

Probably be quicker and easier to make a list of the ones who weren't dishonest scamming creeps.

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Updated with videos of reaction from both Key and Goff now.

Off to release of National's welfare policy tomorrow.

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was there a debate?

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***yawn***

regards

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First round: 1.5 points each

The relaxed, dynamic souls & money preacher vs. the grumpy  HandyMan, who meet a lot of people.

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Goff is  boring, Key is more charming. The problem is that Key is a supreme bullshit artist. I cannot believe a word that guy says.

The question is really, is the NZ voter stupid? Tragically I think they will vote for personality not policy, and Key will get home handsomely.

I voted for the Nats last time, but the last 3 years have shown me that Key's idea of a better life for working folk is getting the crumbs as the blow off the plate of the top few per cent.

That said, what a terrible alternative Labour provide. I feel like I'm being offerred roundup OR paraquat for my nightcap

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Great job last night Alex.

Comprehensive coverage  with two videos.

Cheers

Bernard

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Key and Goff have both refused to appear on TV debates with the minor parties. 

I'd be very interested to hear from each of them what reason they have for making this decision. 

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I'd guess that it's largely about limiting exposure for the minor parties, try to keep them in obscurity, whether allies or not.

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I'm surprised that Key did a debate with Labour. I've got to say, that the Greens are actually more of a major party than Labour is.

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Key came across as a more confident leader and not surprising he was well ahead in the poll. He really blew it for me though when asked about the "occupy" movement and dismissed it as a bunch of "rent a mobs" and John Minto wannabees. Cheap shot and completely untrue IMHO.

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Yeah that was revealing - JK really harbours distain for the 99% slogan, eh?!  :-)

Interesting how PG called him on that for attacking a person, rather than the point of the movement/cause at large.

Also quite comical when Key strained to answer what cause he'd march in the streets for (the Backbenchers journo asked that question).  Key looked plain awkward - clearly, the idea of holding a placard is an anathema to him.  :-)

Goff on the other hand could site a number of causes he'd taken to the streets on.

I saw this as a key difference between the two individuals: Key embodies everything that Wall Street is - Goff (and everyone else who has never worked on the Street) are the ROW (rest-of-the-world).

The triumph of course is the fact that due to Labour's policies which 'go where no political party in NZ dared go before' - untouchable issues are finally out of the closet.  In three years, I expect there will be even more of these "untouchables" out in the open.

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<quote>clearly, the idea of holding a placard is an anathema to him.</quote>

Good. It's anathema to me too. And to most working people. It's what dole bludgers do when they don't get want they want - it's a tantrum.

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Hope you worked on labour day then ( at normal rates and with no day off to compensate in the future)?

 

idiot...

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I always find these debates amusing, people see what they want to see and I know both sides will see a clear win.

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"Borrowing to support lifestyles that are desirable but not affordable is where Britain’s financial nightmare began...with household debts (including mortgages) rising on average from £55,800 to £81,700 in just four years."

£81,700...Doesn't sound much, does it! The same for New Zealand...the private debt doesn't sound much, does it Mr. Key? But New Zealand is headed for the same nightmare. "Balancing the books" isn't going to cut it, Mr. Key. It's repayment of our acummulated core debt that we need, to avoid our very own nightmare....

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Well I am puzzeled as to those of you who thought Key's performance was confident ...it seems to me you can't tell a lucid understanding of directional policy  from smug arrogance......conciet....presumed superiority....

Goff looked like what he was a desperate man with little to lose throwing caution to the wind occassionaly...but at least having pseudo facts on recall when required and showed the ability to steer the subject matter albeit in an agitated manner.

It would appear to me many of the posters cannot tell when Key is under pressure or pissed off.......I can tell you he was plenty pissed off....I mean he had to stand there and take being called a liar (and he is) by  a fringe socialist...? I'm worth 50mill for F*&ks sake and this turd is still in my face.

If you could not see that I'd suggest you go back and take another look.

On a beatup basis.....I give it to Goff...just for belting the smug little bastard .

On clarity of policy a big zero for both in such a dynamic world.... save the Afgan question where Key used every bit of indifference he could muster to say probably not  meaning YES I WOULD.

 And so series one of ....Smug ..Vs...Desperate....

 Ding Desperate by 1 for the heavier blows......and it's all about blow isn't it now.

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Christov my English isn’t good enough for using the right words making the delicate judging of the two, but would read similar what you are saying.

I think Goff was feisty and named “things” the way they are.

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Thank you Walter, I thought your earlier post was a  good assesment also...Money Preacher indeed....................."and lead us not into temptation"

For what it's worth the one undeniable thing I can see about Key is that he

..is not listening....!

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From a distance: Goff’s deep bark was better then Key’s flattering miau, miau. ;-)

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Is this the best available to New Zealand? No wonder 100 000 have left, the future looks bleak no matter who wins.

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Key and goff will not solve NZs economic woes. we are dependant on the americans.europeans and asians to get out of the shite.now if their economies are tanking how is ours expected to improve..

 

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You are correct, as things currently stand, but why should it be this way? Does it have to be this way?

So many root causes:

  • Muldoon and his National Super fraud.
  • The failure - and unwillingness - of most people to save, and to not spend more than they earn.
  • The failure - and unwillingness - of the nation to invest in anything that doesn't somehow involve cows or houses.
  • The inability - and unwillingness - of most people to live within their means and forego the multiple houses, and the "I'm not insecure at all!" cars, boats, jetskis, etc.
  • Most of NZ's big earnings disappearing into foreign bank accounts, due to foreign ownership of most of NZ's biggest earners, or because local owners feel zero duty to NZ.

There are others, but the litany is far too depressing to continue.

Of course, the usual rabble will start shrieking that it's all due to "socialism", but they are just as depressing as the facts...

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But haven't you heard? Foreigners will only partially own all of New Zealand's ex-State assets. So no worries, eh?

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Phew!

I feel so relieved.

Not.

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Hey just because I'm swimming in debt doesn't mean I can't enjoy all my toys!

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Something for you to learn....the past is no indication of the future. 

regards

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Well I thought Phil was trying to be a nice man but I felt if one took all of that

conversation out it didn't leave any hard facts and ideas that people could

sincerely believe in. I am left with the impression that once again the labour party and

the trade unions would  be calling the shots. No doubt Phil is a nice man

but in my view he looked 'dated'.

John Key looked more business like and confident. I believe he has a better understanding

of financial matters. In these days of the  rapidly changing global enviroment these

politicians need to give up on making promises.Even two weeks can be a long time

in politics.

I am amazed this morning that polls had Phil a winner on the night.??

 

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What happens next in China and US is what is important, not who did angry best last night

Therefore Hu won

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.

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Ýip,

L: unite with people you may or may not like and be no better nor worse

vs

N: divide and conquer and be better or worse

Greed has been great for N. Although we've slowly realised that the mobility to be rich has stalled due to the hoarding by the top of assets & cash. Still that carrot/carot looks so good

 

 

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On the left we have a career politician and never had a real job, chances are he won't know what it is like in real life.  On the right we have an ex-banker. 

Truth is never trust a politician, but then I don't trust any banker. They're both wearing shiny suits and telling lies

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Noone won last night only loosers i.e. the voters!

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"It would appear to me many of the posters cannot tell when Key is under pressure or pissed off ""

Christov, I happen to agree. Hes not used to being debated with & had to resort to goading etc but appearred to not believe his own spin.

We are in a right pickle at the mo because we elect based on who promises things we want.

The debt cycle we are in globally is because we repeatedly vote in those who promise the most, last time it was National.

As voters, until we smarten up a bit, we will get what we voted for. All this crap about who looked best on the night, is piffling more of the same politics.

Dylan had it right "you dont always get what you want, And if you try sometime you find
You get what you need"

We need to vote in who ever does the right thing, and amputates wants for needs.

If we end up with the same primative tribalism we see in the states, our major parties will cease to put their country first, and instead put the party first, just like we saw recently where the opposition Republican party refused approve the debt ceiling. 

Primitive Tribalism!

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Well put Pureant........I've just been inspired by Amanda to buy a dog..(again  sadly sniff)...I'll call him ..................VOTER

....All I need to do is promise all and deliver little...pander to his sensitivities....and

throw him the occassional bone....to ensure his undying affection for me.....

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'The debt cycle we are in globally is because we repeatedly vote in those who promise the most, last time it was National.'

 

The 'debt cycle' is nothing to do with politicians (other than their inaction), it is because our entire economic and monetary system is based upon exponentially increasing consumption and by default, exponentially increasing debt. (As nearly all money is created as debt)

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Deleted

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OOPS the Stones I mean!

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is ok Dlyan would like to have said it first I'm sure...{: >)

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I like it.........so we are treated like dogs cause we act like dogs. Maybe one day when we graduate from cupboard love, we will see a change in the way we are seduced.

Not sure who would look best in a nightie, John has a nice strut!

 

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You know the old adage ...Never bite the hand that feeds you.......it was a Political lie.

Bite like you got the rabies .......

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You should try to become the good person that your dog thinks you are.. that goes for our politicians also.  At the end of the day - the only suckers are the voters 

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Ouch!....................but I think that was my point....I will try harder....I can and I wll...no wait that's Obama....?

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But who will change NZ for the better?

http://www.changenz.co.nz/

 

Cheers, Les.

www.nzmea.org.nz

 

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Nice to see you Les ...wondered where you got to...I posted a response to  someone here this morning on that very question as follows...

 

 It leaves the question unanswered as in what to replace the system with that has checks and balances without growing the administration...? that holds dear the wider interests of it's citizens while still able to satisfy Corporate investment....that has the long term management of our environment as a priority while continuing to rape short term rewards.   These are just some of the paradoxical issues that cause the term politician to exsist.....    I once read diplomacy ....."is the art of saying nice doggy untill you can pick up a big stick"    I have never forgotten it....it still holds true.    If the enemy is within then so should his enemy be...., provided he can survive the lure .      I will go over and sign up on the dark side good looking site and I'm a big fan of Garnish Bannana.... cheers!
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Well that was no good Les ...I can't even post a comment...I just broke a pointing finger trying to type to Garnesh for ten minutes and couldn't add the comment.

 Youv'e had me blacklisted haven't you...! come on out with it man.

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No idea Count, probably Alex with bagger all else better to do than censor your comments.

Had to go oop North and took time out for some much needed hydration treatment. Am much better now thanks.

Glad to see the AB's finally cracked it - ha'way the lads! 71-8, or 81-7 wasn't it? Can't quite recall how the drubbing went, but I know there was ONE point in it somewhere, hmm. Anyway, excellent result and it meant I could hydrate earlier that day!!

Cheers, Les.

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Ta Les.....and no I did not say anything contentious...so not that.

 GLad to see you fully hydrated and ready for action......Yes I'm sure our Valiant feats on the Eden Park battlefield will live long in the memories and grow in achievement with each passing cup that eludes us in the future.

ha'way the Lads indeed..! Cheers ..stay well.

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