Buyers of low-emitting cars will be able to get a rebate from July 1, 2021, while buyers of high-emitting vehicles will have to pay a fee from January 1, 2022.
The Government’s feebate scheme will apply to new and used vehicles that arrive in New Zealand. Fees and rebates won’t be applied to sales of already-registered vehicles within the domestic second-hand market.
The maximum fee will be $5175 for a new vehicle and $2875 for a used one.
The maximum rebate will be $8625 for a new vehicle and $3450 for a used one.
Rebates will be available for vehicles worth less than $80,000 that have at least a three-star safety rating.
They’ll be issued for electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles first registered from July 1. Vehicles ordered or bought prior to this can still receive a rebate if buyers delay registering the vehicle to July 1.
From January 1, a set of smaller rebates will be available for low-emitting vehicles that can’t be plugged in.
The level of fee/rebate will be calculated based on the level of emissions, and will be reviewed every year.
Here are some indicative new vehicle rates appliable from 2022:
Waka Kotahi New Zealand Transport Agency will administer the feebate scheme, and will issue rebates/collect fees directly from vehicle purchasers, not dealers.
Businesses will include the discount/fee when calculating Fringe Benefit Tax and depreciation for vehicles they buy.
Dealers will from 2022 be required to display CO₂ emissions and fee/rebate information on vehicles for sale and online.
The feebate scheme accompanies a Clean Car Standard, announced in January 2021, which will require vehicle suppliers to import more fuel-efficient vehicles from 2022.
New Zealand First prevented the feebate scheme from getting the go-ahead during the previous term of government.
Climate Change Minister James Shaw acknowledged Julie Anne Genter for laying the foundations for the scheme as Associate Transport Minister in the previous term of government.
“As technology develops and more manufacturers decide to stop making petrol and diesel cars, the cost of low emissions vehicles will come down,” Shaw said.
“However at the moment they are still more expensive to buy. Today’s announcement helps to address that…
“Reducing the cost of electric, hybrid and low-emission vehicles will also stimulate the second-hand market, so in the years to come even more people can access low carbon transport options.”
Transport Minister Michael Wood said: “Our transport emissions are the fastest growing source of greenhouse gas emissions in New Zealand so we need to start taking action now if we are going to meet our 2050 targets.
“New Zealand is actually lagging behind on the uptake of EVs, so we are playing catch up internationally. Our monthly registrations of EVs are around half the global average and sales are well below the 50% of monthly sales seen in some European countries…
“Importantly the policy only applies to new and used cars arriving in New Zealand, so the existing second-hand market of cars that lower income families tend to purchase from will not be affected.”
Wood also made the point electric vehicle chargers are now available every 75km on average along most state highways across the country.
236 Comments
hobo,
That's what I worked out. I bought a 5 year old Leaf to do almost all our local driving and so far it's working out pretty much as I thought. It's a really nice car to drive and well equipped right down to a heated steering wheel. The only thing we don't have access to is the map system-it's in Japanese and apparently couldn't be switched, but who cares? If necessary we would use our phones.
I'm all for EVS , but just curious....NZ electricity is already having supply problems and expensive as it is...not to mention propped up by burning more fossil fuels when rainfall is low...How will the electricity infrastructure handle all these new plug in vehicles in the future in summer when rainfall is low for the lakes that produce hydro and travelling is at its peak?
https://www.toyota.com/rav4prime/
They do make a PHEV RAV4 nowadays.
One thing not covered in the article or the discussion thus far, is conversions.
Rav4's have been converted down my way, starting a long time ago. I'm told successfully. There are going to be s---loads of ex-ff vehicles in this country, with entirely good suspension, brakes and appointments - and a s---load of folk with the spanner-skills to convert them. Heck, it could be an exportable skill/industry.
Tesla swapped Audi. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGVVioOjCUU
I think there could be a big market for it, was actually talking to some mates about it today. They argued that the cost would be prohibitive because batteries etc on their own are expensive. All it would take is for some companies who are not interested in building new car bodies, suspension etc to come up with their own electric motor + battery combo with a retrofit kits for a fair price i.e. a typical mark up the components would see in a complete car.
Everyone has been talking about converting cars, which is not difficult but usually requires part of the boot taken with batteries etc. What I haven't heard is Ute conversions. There is soooo much room in Utes due to the ladder frame (same with Prados, Landcruisers etc). If you look at the new F150 lightning it is essentially a converted F150 - Its not a completely new platform. Here is a chance toyota with your Thames factory to do conversions and create huge goodwill in this country? Or somone else to step in. Imagine if the 8000 subsidy applied for converting a vehicle! Whats better for the environment than getting a new electric car on the road? Converting a gas car to electric.
When the smoke from houses is ten times worse looking forward to the day you stop burning wood and lording the ability to walk over those so disabled they are literally forced to use ICE vehicles and with no other options to live at all. Plus it would be nicer to live a city without having a severe asthma attack because smoke from fires is inescapable because people believe it must be cleaner than gas because the greens branding told them it was.
Better teach the severely disabled to fly then because newsflash there is no other transport option available other than ICE vehicles and here is a newsflash not even public transport is accessible so how nice of you to deny people with disabilities basic access to everyday living. Why not just give them a freebate for a gun it would be MORE CHARITABLE THAN REMOVING THE BASIC RIGHTS FOR TRANSPORT ACCESS AND CHARGING THEM THOUSANDS MORE FOR MOBILITY VANS.
When they do not allow you savings and income to afford transport then yes your right is denied to it. Most people with severe mobility disabilities cannot even afford weekly transport and the access for that transport to city streets and public spaces is being stripped away. Take the Domain and the war memorials they are stripping out all the mobility parking and road access and expect disabled people to walk up step hills when not even motorised powerchairs can make the slope. When they strip your rights to access streets and raise the price of vehicles above the limits allowed to you to be allowed to have housing to live in then yes your access to what limited transport you had before is being stripped. When there is no mobility vans available in the world or NZ that have electric options and hydraulic lifts then mate you are dreaming to think we can all suddenly walk and have EVs. When the right to literally access and even get into public transport and for private transport to get access to a site is denied then YES THE RIGHT TO ACCESS TRANSPORT IS LITERALLY BEING DENIED.
1. You haven't established that this policy is going to do anything to the price of mobility transportation. It may even make it cheaper. You don't know, you're just blithely stating it will become more expensive.
2. Most of what you've rambled about above has nothing to do with the EV policy that is being discussed, but existing policy failures. As I've said above, you don't have any evidence that this specific policy is going to make the present situation worse.
They can be. Some of them require a different way to fit the wheelchair lift, EV vans often have the battery under the floor where they want to fit a side loading wheelchair hoist. So instead you need to switch to a rear entry hoist, or design a hoist that doesn't mount under the floor and instead mounts above the battery. It requires some engineering work, its not fundamentally impossible.
Prius is all good for off road, what a whip.
Agree - it seems that the new policy is specifically targeted to cut out almost all Tesla models. The only one that does fit under the new threshold is the lowest tier Model 3. I doubt Tesla will discount their X & S lines as the delta with their current prices is too high - but there could be an argument made for more of the Model 3/lowest Y range.
Honestly it is astonishing how expensive Teslas are in NZ. The Standard range Model 3 in the USA is USD35,690 without any incentives, a straight conversion to NZD would be $49,999. However that exact car is $69,900 in NZ. I understand there is a shipping cost and all, but $20,000? Surely if Labour looked at waiving import fees/other taxes it would do more than encourage EV adoption here in NZ.
The anti-carbon left says the U.S. must banish fossil fuels to meet the Paris goal of limiting global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius relative to pre-industrial temperatures. This is incompatible with a worldwide population that is expected to grow by two billion by 2050. It would require an enormous reorganization of the global economy that would keep billions in poverty.
Electric vehicles would have to make up 60% of worldwide car sales by 2030, according to a recent International Energy Agency report. “You have 800 million people who do not have access to electricity. You can’t say that they have to go to net zero [carbon]. They have to develop,” Indian Minister of New and Renewable Energy Raj Kumar Singh said in March.
Unless there is some technology breakthrough, demand for fossil fuels will continue to grow for decades. And Russia and China will take advantage of U.S. energy disarmament. Russian oil giant Rosneft warned last fall that retrenchment by U.S. and European companies would result in higher prices and shortages. “Someone will need to step in,” Rosneft senior executive Didier Casimiro said. Link
Disappointing analysis - developed countries that have dumped carbon into the atmosphere for the longest have to over perform and invest in tech in the global south and less developed countries. But as treadlightly would remind us - we also have to dramatically reduce our energy use whatever form it takes.
Audaxes - you can raise your game further than repeating propaganda, can't you? Left? Anti-Carbon? How about just sticking to factual stuff when you link?
Thank you.
The question of the stupidity in your link - and it is stupidity, if it isn't cynical spin - is 'what then? And What then? And What then? FFS; this is a finite resource. FINITE. MEANING IT WILL END ANYWAY. The earlier we wean, the less the carnage and the more resilience/capacity we have when if happens. We are already overpopulated; using even more (who aren't even here yet) to justify continuance is at least immoral, indeed I'd suggest its
even worse.
The joke is that those who are propagandising, are doing so aboard a sinking ship. THAT is the issue.
Fine, all very well shouting at and lecturing Adx’s and others that dare to have an opinion in a free world. Nice easy comfortable targets close to home of course. How about, rather than sanctimoniously broadcasting from a hillock North of Dunedin or wherever, get on your bike go abroad, Beijing, Moscow, Mumbai beckon, and let loose the same message in the same manner. Afterall, 2 or 3 billion recipient souls thus converted & saved, would make that much greater difference.
I do what I can do, by way of demonstration. I influence those in my sphere, or try to. I grew trees not for money, but to address what was obviously coming.
But you want to shoot the message by shooting the messenger.
The planet has far too many human inhabitants, and that will work out badly. Doesn't make it illegitimate to raise the point. That is also the backgrounder for this little topic - not that the media will equate the two, let alone in proportion. This is the last heave we'll get (before renewables are the only remaining option physically, via ultimate depletion. Spending it on EV's is, in my opinion, misguided but the best they could do, given our false narrative. In reality, shifting a ton of metal and battery, to shoft one person and some groceries a few kilometres, makes no sense to me. An E-bike (an E-reumbent-trike in my case) does that job for a lot less build and charge and maintenance energy.
Fine, personally I am highly appreciative of what I have discovered from your contributions. But if I may respectfully suggest, grab the dictionary, look up the meaning of sanctimonious, look at yourself and you might find a less patronising and supercilious approach more productive. Have noticed quite often you go back in, edit and tone down your responses. So you know this already methinks.
Usually I read post using a recipient's angle, and re-write it to less confuse them. Too often, I assume the same amount of research, which is often not the case.
But it is years since I challenged Jacqueline Rowarth about that straw-man 'need to feed the world' nonsense. Sure, she avoided engaging, but this is years down the trsck, and we haven't many left; obviously less than we did. I've come to regard not moving on from a discussion-point, as having the same effect as outright obfuscation or as legally restricting usable words; as a deliberate waste of time.
Indeed, if I were a pro-bono lawyer working for future generations, I'd call a lot of the obfuscation, at this late stage, criminal. I'm sure that's how future generations will see it - if they're not too compromised to have time to think.........
I feel the same frustration. It's hard to exhibit patience after years of battling BAU types. Coming across as arrogant, or sanctimonious, to some, is just the personal damage inflicted by banging one's head on the unyielding wall of human self delusion. Appreciate your comments PDK.
Those on the road now have already been bought without rebate. So forget about them. This tax applies to new purchases so your comment which implies some sort of jealousy/ envy will apply to a subset: new owners of those particular cars. Remember that most cars are bought on finance. So please do not assume that all Tesla and I-Pace owners are actually rich.
I personally do not have a problem with people buying Teslas and I-Paces. Good on them.
If everything is as transparent as you suggest (the betterness of EV would be self event), why give money to wealthy (as if the house value gift was not enough), levy costs on tradies and self employed (productives).
Or does this make it all alright?
.... so the existing second-hand market of cars that lower income families tend to purchase from will not be affected.”
Ok, put your thoughts about the levy to one side.
Develop your idea of the middle class. Looking at the rebate why give the most dollars to the wealthy?
Why not give the biggest dollar rebates to the lowest cost EV. Take $8,000 (20%) or more off a Corolla hybrid.
The people you rail about most, are getting gifted the greatest.
# This isn't about shifting units!
I'm not quite sure what the ETS has given us? Not in terms of what it was created for anyhow? Of course there is talk of units increasing into the $100+ range. Will this change behaviour? The way currency has been trashed, the value of credits will probably need to be double that to have any discernable impact?
I think you are more deluded than Shaw if you think you will save the planet by buying an I-Pace,unless your only alternative Remuera tractor /ego enhancer was a V8 Jeep.
Of course I want the Jaguar but consider it unjustifiable on planetary or financialĺ grounds.
Remember it takes 70000 k to break even on CO2,recall the Tesla has a poor reputation for reliability, and I doubt the Jag more than a bit.
Even the Jag is a victim of its own success. Last I hear JLR had farmed so much money into intensively pivoting towards EVs that they couldn't refresh the iPace other than a minor facelift and tweaking the entertainment systems and computer menus. I think Magna used it as a case study and established there was still a lot of potential left in the platform, but JLR haven't been able to develop it.
So why will the poorest taxpayers be expected to cover the largest transport costs. While are people with disabilities expected to pay more than 10x the price for an equivalence with public transport and 10000x the price of walking or cycling. How do you expect those who can legally be paid less than $3 per hour cover 10000x the price than your joe average green cycle lobbyist who earns over 100x what they do and is now being funded additional freebates and hundreds of millions above price of the entire disability transport access costs (which have to be funded privately).
It's not really a freebate. People buying these green vehicles are still paying GST. As far as expecting the poorest taxpayers to cover the largest transport costs - there is no expectation. The poorest tax payers pay a net negative tax, so the public purse is funding their transport costs - can I call this a freebate?
How many disabled people are buying new-to-NZ cars not in the 0-band range?
It's mostly high performance vehicles, SUVs and utes that are having the extra levy added. And only new-to-NZ. Anyone buying from the domestic second hand market is not directly affected by this policy.
A lot as most the mobility vans need to be near new imports (clarification added as most NZs stock has to be imported even as a second hand market but the imported vehicles incur the new tax) and for modifications. If you can only literally afford one vehicle in your lifetime and for modifications need it to fit them and still be road worthy your options become even more limited. In case you had not realized the vans are both diesel and petrol only in NZ.
How will it be self funding when the import of high emissions vehicles will severely reduce once this scheme is in place? Just more government spin trying to convince us it isn't a subsidy for wealthy families looking for a second car. Suppose it will partially compensate for the top tax rate increase though?
Will the subsidy go? Electrifying the vehicle fleet is a huge undertaking. It seems this proposal is revenue neutral after it's initial phase? Even if the popularity of gas hogs declines, I can see a sinking lid strategy being applied to FF powered vehicles, as uptake accelerates.
Definitely agree PT. Hopefully this is the start of a broader transition away from FF cars in NZ. I would like to see the small car/hybrid component removed sooner rather than later, but I understand they have to start somewhere - replacing a Remuera taxi with something a little more sustainable would be excellent. However we are going to need those hulking big fuel tankers crossing the seas for some time yet.
I think the I-Pace would still get the max rebate,an 80000 car would get the same but no more than a 150000 carf.Far better for CO2 I suspect to get a 30000 car and spend the 120000 difference on planting natives.
Correction looks like if you spend 80001 you won't get the rebate
I love this policy. It’s one of the best policies ever.
It’s important to it’s not a taxpayer subsidy, my understand is it’s intended to be self funding.
It’s also important to note popular cars like the carolla, rav4 and CX5 all seem to have no ‘fee’ so if you buy one of those it’s just BAU.
The only people getting stung are the people driving around in the oversized tanks.
So those who literally have no other choice than mobility vans will be totally screwed over by people like you who can choose to take a bus or walk but expect subsidies for their purchases for no other reason except they state they cannot bear not to buy a new car. You do realise that the only mobility vehicles we have now are mostly imports and the secondhand market is so limited that a single vehicle has to last an entire lifetime. Think about how you would get by if your only transport option was pegged on a vehicle lasting over 60years without fault.
Lets see if this influences the cost of cars. I wouldn't be surprised if the initial sale price of electric ones goes up a bit from July.
And depending on the size of this effect it will instantly devalue already purchased EVs.
Overall though I think its a good thing. I just hate Utes and SUVs. A shame it doesn't discourage diesels as much as it should given that the emissions of these cause cancer. I'd have a calculation which is a mix of CO2 and particles.
Very good point. The amount of power stations plus the power grid all over NZ cannot handle people rushing into EVs. Major energy and transmission charge price rises. (especially if the gas ban is not rolled back).
Except perhaps Southland if Tiwai closes. But salaries are not high down there so not many will rush into new EVs there.
David Boot, owner of Christchurch's EV City, said the rebate would not be the best thing for the EV industry in New Zealand long term.
The money would just end up in Japan or other countries where EVs were imported from.
People selling the cars in the offshore markets would know the New Zealand Government was paying a rebate and that combined with a big increase in demand caused by the rebate would push the price up, Boot said.
Importers were going to be put under pressure to buy as many EVs as possible and they would all be competing against each other.
He wanted EV users to be exempt from paying road user charges. The existing exemption runs until the end of 2021
Wont be just the offshore sellers. There won't be a car dealer in the country that wont jack the price up of newly imported second hand cars so that after the rebate they are the same price as existing second hand models already in the country and sitting on their yard.
Not really. Just another scam, zero emissions isn't true. And when we all own a EV they want us in our personal drones. Would be smart to push that drone idea for less resources used. And we don't need that stupid bridge. When weather is bad, just sit on your bike in your home and charge your drone
At the margin, all current incremental EV charging is coming from coal. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/444472/new-zealand-s-use-of-coal-fo…
PDK. Yep, You watch. The hydro lakes are under half full, the glacier melt isn't happening, the glaciers are gone. As of tonight the wholesale power price is $0.33 per kw/h. Many of the gentailers are charging slightly above $0.30 kw/h right now excluding line costs. I will hang on to my 24 year old car for a few more years while maintenance costs are low
Government has got this backside about face. Should have ramped up power supply first
This is a good point - the cost of electricity is already very high in NZ. I agree with the new incentives but I don't think they will move the needle a great deal in terms of increasing EV adoption just yet - the prices of EVs are still too high for too many people. We need to pair incentives like these with new power generation/storage schemes at a national level - however these schemes can have a fairly large lead in time & so we need to start moving on them ... yesterday!
They also pushed for burning hundreds of tonnes more coal and indeed burning more fuel to ship it in and even worse burning even more coal to enable power requirements for future charging needs. So no, the limited number of new EVs for rich folk will not outnumber the damage from the increased power needs, power cost increases and even worse increasing costs on low income families because the greens said they must never be able or never need a new import simply because the greens said they must not be allowed to access that market or else suffer not affording it even further. Congrats you are putting your thanks behind a party leading in the largest increases in the worse FF being burnt and even worse wellbeing outcomes for the most vulnerable and low income families in NZ. Pop open your champagne bottles and enjoy that smoked salmon that has been seasoned with the tears of the poor sods serving it to you.
Pretty sure NZ isn't one of those countries. And if the car isn't imported into nz how are you going to register it without the import paperwork? And you'll need to register it to claim the rebate.
This sounds more like a made up scenario of the anti-ev brigade than anything approaching reality.
Perhaps, but if you want to leave home, say a reasonably normal long journey, Christchurch to Queenstown or Nelson, a good measure of hills and passes, surely there will need to be a good selection recharge facilities all along the way, not just at each end, one would think?
https://i.imgur.com/JjlkM2R_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=me…
Yes, the wait is factored in beforehand. The cars navigation works it out for you.
In my case, driving from Wellington to Queenstown I need to charge for 40 minutes in Christchurch and 20 minutes in Omarama.
(Ignore the Wellington stop, its currently charging outside my house and I'd wait until its full before starting my hypothetical roadtrip)
The long time it takes to charge a vehicle means a longer trip time, which means more tired drivers, so how long before road accident rates go up? Secondly, how many people will decide that an extra hour on their journey makes it worthwhile flying to the destination instead?
60 minutes charging on an 11 hour trip doesn't seem like a long time. In fact, thats probably less of a break than I would take if I didn't need to charge.
Also helps that I can use those chargers for free which saves a lot on travel expenses - moves the needle towards driving if we're weighing up the pros and cons of driving vs flying.
Exactly the problem with electric vehicles in NZ - Most don't have the range to do a standard road trip here. At least monthly I will do a trip one way of 600km or more. To stop and charge a vehicle is extremely impractical. We need supercharges and decent infrastructure in place before I would even consider it.
Quite a fan of the odd road trip myself, with a decent EV (ie, not a local commuter only EV like a leaf) and the number of 50kW+ chargers popping up (take a look at teh chargenet maps) its really not such a big deal. Drive for 3 hours and then stop at a charging site, plug the car in, wander off for a pee and a pie, stretch your legs, and get back in the car. 30mins =25kWh of charge, and thats good for another 2+ hours of driving. A decent stop for a proper meal and you are leaving with 75% charged battery.
So sure, if you are comparing a road trip with two drivers swapping duties and eating on the move and peeing in plastic bottles its not comparable, but unless you are running guns/drugs, why not actually stop for a coffee and stretch your legs?
Thats if there is a charger free when you arrive. Once everyone is driving an EV, on holiday weekends etc the chance of you pulling in and there being a free charger spot available will be nil. So factor in the hours you will spend waiting in the queue for other people to charge their cars, before its your turn.
That of course is only an issue if you actually go further away than a fully charged battery will get you from home. So if you go more than ~250kms for most new EVs So Auckland to Thames and Whangamata are fine, Auckland to Paihia is about the limit, assuming a modest EV. Many better EVs have real world ranges of 350kms, which would cover the vast majority of trips.
I travel for work and need to maximise my time, often spending a day in a city. Normally on the road around 5am, drive straight to my first appointment at 10:30/11 spend the whole day in town, then back on the road 5am the next day to my next meeting (I concede I can charge the vehicle overnight at my accommodation) . Spending 30 minutes breaking up the drive isn't practical plus all the driving I do around the cities I visit, I often don't have time to stop. Normally just enough time to grab a quick pie, refuel and back on the road again or to the next appointment.
Or just do what my leaf owning sister did - hire an ICE car when you want to go on a road trip, using the savings you made on petrol.
She ordered a Tesla model 3 before the budget, think they're expecting delivery before 1st of July. But I bet they'll put off registering it until 1st July now.
Big picture, here is Scotty Kilmer
Well played China
The EV dirty manufacturing in China - 90%.
On Batteries, Cars, Charging, Original power source.
https://youtu.be/kua9I49rcCQ
Govt's & their advisers (MBIE) never learn. Watch now for the dealers to slowly increases prices at the margin (of course based on everything except the subsidy eg Fx, supply shortages, shipping....). It will be no different from the rent subsidy increasing rents or WFF decreasing wages/salaries.
Exactly. The price of an rebateable car will be the same price as the other non-rebateable models sitting on their lot, plus the rebate amount. The dealers will pocket the rebate amount courtesy of the Govt. The consumer will think they got a saving but in reality still paid the same price. This is how First Home Buyer grants work - they simply inflate the price of the property to the advantage of the vendor. Some Govts never learn.
The first Ute builder to bring out a hybrid or plugin will have a big price advantage. Then the funds for the rebate will disappear and the scheme finish. It might be then moved to all ice vehicles and same will happen. Also in play is car companies intentions anyway - GM 100% electric by 2035 etc etc. buckle up for massive change in the next decade on all fronts. Just remember google, amazon, space x didn’t really exist 15 to 20 years ago. Exon who used to be the biggest is fading fast.
https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/2022/
The new electric f150 looks pretty promising, available next year.
Certain types of people buy certain types of cars. The car is almost an extension of your personality and there are those out there who will never go electric until they start building certain types of cars. SUV's are just horrible so they are a no go for me, I need something with handling and Tradie's with UTE's are unlikely to rush out and get electric either. Don't get me wrong, electric has potential but so far its boring and if its not boring its incredibly expensive.
Tradies drive lots more than utes. Painters,plumbers,sparkles invariably work out of vans and if you observe those round town most are hardly new meaning replacement/upgrading not that often affordable. Assume there are electric options for this need, vehicle type. Self employed single operators might well struggle up and down the country to find outgo for this?
Yep boring. You lot can keep on driving your Nissan Leaf. We are talking road cars PDK not pipe dreams. Something like the Audi E-Tron looks like its getting there but look at the cost. Electric has a long way to go. Great for certain applications like busses and those that dream of a self drive car. Its going to take years yet for them to go mainstream and the price to come down by about HALF.
Who Killed the Electric Car? - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car?
Who Killed the Electric Car? is a 2006 documentary film that explores the creation, limited commercialization, and subsequent destruction of the battery electric vehicle in the United States, specifically the General Motors EV1 of the mid-1990s. The film explores the roles of automobile manufacturers, the oil industry, the federal government of the United States, the California government, batteries, hydrogen vehicles, and consumers in limiting the development and adoption of this technology. After a premiere at the Sundance Film Festival, it was released theatrically by Sony Pictures Classics in June 2006 and then on DVD by Sony Pictures Home Entertainment on November 14, 2006. A follow-up documentary, Revenge of the Electric Car, was released in 2011.
Topics addressedI nterviewsProduction and releaseThe suspectsResponse from General MotorsReceptionExternal links
The film deals with the history of the electric car, its modern development, and commercialization. The film focuses primarily on the General Motors EV1, which was made available for lease mainly in Southern California, after the California Air Resources Board (CARB) passed the zero-emissions vehicle (ZEV) mandate in 1990 which required the seven major automobile suppliers in the United States to offer electric vehicles in order to continue sales of their gasoline powered vehicles in California. Nearly 5000 electric cars were designed and manufactured by Chrysler, the Ford Motor Company, General Motors (GM), Honda, Nissan, and Toyota; and then later destroyed or donated to museums and educational institutions. Also discussed are the implications of the events depicted for air pollution, oil dependency, Middle East politics, and global warming.
The film details the California Air Resources Board's reversal of the mandate after relentless pressure and suits from automobile manufacturers, continual pressure from the oil industry, orchestrated hype over a future hydrogen car, and finally the George W. Bush administration.
A portion of the film details GM's efforts to demonstrate to California that there was no consumer demand for their product, and then to take back every EV1 and destroy them. A few were disabled and given to museums and universities, but almost all were found to have been crushed. GM never responded to the EV drivers' offer to pay the residual lease value; $1.9 million was offered for the remaining 78 cars in Burbank, California before they were crushed. Several activists, including actresses Alexandra Pauland Colette Divine, were arrested in the protest that attempted to block the GM car carriers taking the remai…
NZ now has a Battery Industry Group (BIG!), https://big.org.nz, which includes second life for batteries once they have done their dash in EVs in its remit. There's a business opportunity for you - batteries out of EVs can be used in static situations, once they can no longer deliver the instant power demands of transportation.
So remind me how you recycle a Tesla # battery made of 7000 cells wired together wrapped in plastic, after reuse;the PRAGMATIC solution is landfill??
I admit I'm ignorant as to an economic environmentally friendly answer.
I am aware that some batteries can be largely recycled in some countries, my point is they should be designed for recycling after use.Duh.
Same as you recycle anything else, break it up, seperate the bits into their various categories and reprocess them. Landfill for EV batteries won't be a thing once there are enough of them becoming available. Just like catalytic convertors, when the first cars with them hit the road there was no recycling for them either.
The shear FUD from the troglodites on this page shows that Labour might have got something right for once.. maybe.
Didn't answer the question, (because you can't) how exactly do you economically recycle these batteries, where and when, not might be and could, or may or will do somehow, or would.Especially in a small country like NZ.
It is not FUD, it is totally reasonable to have confidence that way forward is quite clear.You could call it fact checking.
Catalytic converters are totally different,easy to get ROI on the platinum they get stolen big time off cars in UK, so that is a totally ridiculous comparison
It is FUD.
Like most of the recycling in NZ we will ship them overseas to be processed (just like we still do with catalytic convertors), the recycling processes rely on economy of scale which NZ will never reach. https://www.fortum.com/products-and-services/fortum-battery-solutions/r… <- companies like this, and as the number of EVs in the world fleet start to hit the end of their useful life many more will probably pop up, or maybe the few existing plants will simply scale up. Who knows, but when there is a decent supply of old lithium batteries, and a demand for new lithium batteries there will be someone who recycles them, because its financially worthwhile.
Now tell us about your recycling of your used diesel SCR, and oil filters and used oil.. because you aren't being absolutely hypocritical now are you?
I am ultra-thrilled that they seem to have avoided the carve-outs that would have been expected.
Double-cab utes will have a financial push-back against the implicit subsidy they get from being exempt from FBT.
Farm vehicles included - wow! - that's a brave move! The idea that every farm needs a fleet of grunty double cab utes is rubbish - I know a couple of farmed with just regular sized utes & a small family car.
Claire Trevett at the Herald did a big whine about it, I didn't find it at all convincing.
Well, they'd not be quite as correct as they could be:
https://baucher.tax/is-that-ute-really-exempt-from-fbt/
There was never a specific carve-out for double-cab utes like some believe, and the number of times I heard 'My mate's accountant told me [insert incorrect claim about how vehicle FBT works]' would make your head bleed.
It's even less relevant now that small company FBT rules have been revamped a few years ago, I believe.
Some of our roads are ok. But mostly we live on gravel narrow windy roads. I tried a honda car once. The road wrecked it pretty quick. I went straight back to the fourwheel drive hilux. Try coming round a corner with a stock truck coming the other way. You manage to avoid the truck but the trailer inevitably drags across the left hand side of the road. Nowhere to go but the scrub. Hit the bank with a car and you are history. Boof into it in the hilux and carry on your merry way.
Its like having a pony when you need clydie. Or an analogy you might understand better ....there is a difference between a roadbike and a mountainbike for a reason.
So Philly some farmer you know has a wee 2wd hilux and it works for him. That doesnt mean it would work for all, I could tell you 100 reasons why but just coping with our rural roads is reason enough. We buy them and immediately throw the tyres back at the dealer, not good enough and replace with a set of meaty 8 plys minimum. Def looking forward to the electric ute though. And if it can pull my tandem trailer up the airstrip hill I will gladly eat my hat, and buy the solar to power it. In the meantime just tax me death.
More coal to power more EVs.
More EVs, less petrol use, more electricity used, more coal imported and burnt for electricity.
Labour Government imagines more EV cars on NZ roads from next month.
More EVs, needing and using more electricity.
The latest New Zealand Energy Quarterly for the period January-March 2021, released today, showed the amount of coal burned for electricity production had more than doubled from the previous quarter to nearly 430,000 tonnes.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/climate-change-new-zealand-burns-most-coa…
More proof that Climate Change is Not Life or Death.
The Silver lining is that provides a great treatment for a Hollywood blockbuster.
Probably a Mel Brooks movie.
Could if be Blazing Saddles, with PM as Governor Lepetomane character
Or The Producers, with PM as Max Bialystock character.
It could be ready by Springtime.
Long term great. But and a big but. Right now we are using increasing amounts of coal to make up the shortfall in power supply. The extra load from increasing electric cars will not be able to be suplied by renewable sources and must come from fossil fuels. When compared to a normal car, an electric car will produce more CO2 therefore if the electric power is generated frome fossil fuels, particularly coal. So EVs are a bad choice for the country untill after we have greatly increased our supply of renewable energy and our distrabution network and market is rejiged so that cars can be supplied at times when renewable energy is available. As things stand at the moment, adding EVs will actually increase our emissions. In the meantime hybrids are a far better option as their efficiency from fuel to wheels is something like 35% and they don't source their energy from high emitting coal. VW are boasting a prototype that is achieving 45%. PHEVs cover all bases and enable a flexible choice of fuel to suit the prevailing supply conditions.
I think I read that to impliment the recently published carbon reduction plan, we have to increase our renewable power generation by 70%. Think about that and how long it took us to build the existing system. When we build the bulk of our generation assets we had the MWD and NZED who were well staffed to cope with building these assets. Where are they now? What capability do we have now? Gone and bugger all are the answers. This and the previous governments cannot even managge to acheive something as simple as supply an adequate quantity of affordable houses, so they have no hope of supplying the new power required this century let alone in the next few decades. Note that even when we were competent it still took 1 to 2 decades from concept to comissioning. Right now they need to be in the serious planning stages for a large number of renewable power schemes to nearly double our generation capacity. Are they? I would like to see the concrete plans that they have to supply power for all these EVs.. I suspect that like most of their plans, they are just all hot air with no substance or hope of being realised. But it gets worse. Probably one of the reasons that we are having trouble closing fossil fueled power stations is increased demand from our population growth based on out of controled imigration. I note that once covid is tamed that the cretins in government plan to turn on that tap again. So expect our shortfall in renewable power to fall behind further. Does anybody in Wellington actually sit down and consider the totality of their half baked managment of our country? Is any body there actaully capable?
From what I can see, Wellington is just a bubble of bullshit, chardonays and capuchinos, where sublime PR and communication are all that matters while the truth and reality barely rate a consideration.
I listened to an electrical engineer a couple of months back on radio discussing the limitations of our home available power. I havnt seen anyone here mention it yet. I think you have come the closest Chris. So you come home in the evening, plug in your EV, turn on the stove, have a shower, turn on Tele, the heat pump, except you cant. Unfortunately I have forgotten all the terms he mentioned. But we all know two heaters on the one power point isnt a happening thing. Same with charging an EV, heatpump and stove on all at once wont be happening. Let alone all your neighbours doing the same thing. The infrastructure into your home wasnt built with EVs in mind.
The same problem occurred when all the dairy conversions started up, up all these rural roads. You got the rotary platform going, but the hot water cylinders had to wait til the platform was shut down again. There was some major beefing up of electricity infrastructure all over rural nz to cope. When is that planned for our cities and towns?
Thats really not an issue, set the EV to start charging after you've cooked dinner (say from 11pm to 7am 8hrs at 2kW = 16kW = about 130kms of range) and you'll still typically have a full battery in the morning after your 20 -60km daily commute. If you need more than that, install a proper EVSE and charge at 7kW or 11kW and unless you drive 400+kms a day you will have a full battery in the morning.
I dont think you understand. Our electricity lines dont have the capacity to have 20 EVs charging on the average auckland street. Just like we didnt have the capacity to run 10 cowsheds. Every urban electricity line will need to be upgraded before this is workable.
Oh, i understand alright. Your argument is BS. 20 typical urban commuters doing under 80kms a day don't need high power charging, they can charge off a standard wall plug like you plug a typical heater into, and draw about the same amount of power. A simple timer (which most EVs have built in) to avoid charging at peak hours and the problem is solved (from the lines perspective, generation is a different issue).
And for the few that do need more charging than that, they can pay for a EVSE that draws 7 or 11kW, and guess what, our stove is rated at 10.4kW, so don't go thinking that some rediculous draw on the lines, its not.
This is an initiative being touted for the Upper Clutha. One negative for those considering it appears to be the 20yr term of the contract. You don't own the solar system, solar Zero do, so issues could arise if you sell your house and the new owners don't want a bar of it. I did see one comment that says you then take the system to your new residence. But what happens if your new home is a place in a resthome? https://crux.org.nz/community/upper-clutha-solar-project-moves-to-full-… Check out Crux facebook page for comments.
There are other options for those with 3phase power solar systems or intending to them that don't involve Solar Zero. Aurora is concerned about Upper Clutha capacity and will likely need to do something within 5 years. I did hear a cost of around $20m being talked about. Wanaka is a 'dead end' for power, and relies on 2 lines from Cromwell. I understand it has been mooted to put a line in from Queenstown to Wanaka to make a complete loop. But again that will be some time away given resource consents required.
"NZTA will issue rebates/collect fees directly from vehicle purchasers". Presumably this will be done when the vehicle is first registered i.e. for a fee paying vehicle the fee will be added to the cost of first registration. If the buyer is a business this cost will either be wholly tax deductible, or if included in the purchase price will be depreciated. And then there is the claiming of GST refund. These rebates will all be available even if the purchase is fully financed-- at today's low interest rates an extra $2900 would not be a deterrent.
I agree with those raising concerns about the ability of the power grid to meet the needs of a greatly expanded fleet of electric vehicles.
Another question is do we really understand the realities regarding ICE (internal combustion engines) v electric vehicles when it comes to total CO2 emissions. Here's an interesting take on this issue.
An Inconvenient Truth: EVs May Offer A "Negligible" CO2 Difference From ICE Vehicles | ZeroHedge
Basically I put it to you that the ICE car would beat an electric car if they could be bothered to build it. A modern 1000cc Turbo engine in a smaller lighter car is far better than an electric car being charged via a coal powered station. They will not build it currently because the people will not buy it when you can get a huge SUV that makes you feel safe on the road. You have to ask yourself which is easier to implement, build smaller lighter cars or totally upgrade the electricity network to 100% renewables ? One of these options takes takes a year the other will take decades. Everything is about cost, the market will gradually change but only because its basically forced into change. When petrol hits $10 a liter there will be some serious attitude adjustments going on.
A modern 1000cc Turbo engine in a smaller lighter car is far better than an electric car being charged via a coal powered station.
You're ignoring safety legislation that makes it harder to build very light cars as were built in decades past. It's a big component of why modern cars are much heavier than older ones - and also much safer.
Sure, you can build light and powerful cars with very high fuel efficiency. But they may not be road legal.
I own such a car (VW UP 1000cc turbo) and it's pretty good on fuel. It's fairly proportional however, a small light EV will still be lower in lifetime emissions than a small light ICE just as a big heavy EV will be lower than a big heavy ICE.
The small cars will become more popular now that high emitting EVs are taxed and I imagine fuel will begin to be taxed more heavily in order to discourage use.
Charging points are available every 75kms. Yes, there are two on my route from Warkworth to Auckland, if I detour to Silverdale. And I think there may be two Tesla points in Warkworth itself. Might be a bit of a queue at times. Why not use the feebate money and the money for that ridiculous bridge to subsidise a network of charging stations. Infrastructure first, a lesson our planners still don’t seem to have taken on board. And just remember that a new Nissan Leaf takes 23 hours to charge from flat to full using the supplied charger. Upgrading to a faster home system, one that does the job in a lightning quick 12 hours, costs around $4-5k. I think the aim is to move people, especially those on lower incomes, to public transport. Hang on, though - buses and trains in Auckland anyway are infrequent, unreliable, the peak hour buses are often full, stations are hard to get to, and fares are b****y expensive. Infrastructure first….
"And just remember that a new Nissan Leaf [...]. Upgrading to a faster home system, one that does the job in a lightning quick 12 hours, costs around $4-5k. "
That doesn't sound at all right. the new Nissan leaf has a 40kWh battery and a 6.6kW onboard charger. It shouldn't take more than 8 hours to charge from dead flat unless trying to do it outside in the middle of a blizzard or a heat wave. And a 7kW EVSE costs about $2k, plus install.
My concern about the move is that large transport trucks are not seen anywhere in this. The Government seems to be nailing middle NZ to the benefit of the wealthy. I suspect far more could be achieved at much less cost by forcing a lot of the road transport back to rail?
Lanth - I admire your confidence that the collection of clowns impersonating a govt would actually achieve your hope and past records demonstrate these clowns are incapable of achieving anything of real value to NZX so when I see Leopards changing their spots for stripes I will agree with you - no criticism implied as the facts are right just the deliverer is incapable.
Well I've gone ahead and reserved an MG EV this morning. I was already considering one as my old car is thirsty and getting long in the tooth.
I was also considering an Outlander PHEV.
The rebates make the MG about 40k plus ORC. I should save about 3.5k a year in petrol for $900 in interest with the cost of the new car tacked onto the mortgage, maybe $4k per year depreciation (balanced over 5 years of warrantee as a guess) plus whatever off peak power I need to charge it.
Brutus - check latest cattle auctions $2.50 a Kg is marginally profitable for 18-24 months work, keep slagging off those who supply your BBQ steaks and the price will make them a rarity should farmers do what is asked and reduce stock numbers. I for one would be happy to halve my Herd and get double for the product, you may be less happy so as Confucius said - be very careful you don't get what you are asking for - Cattle take 27-33 months to raise so its not possible to quickly reverse a stock shortage.
All the stock agents saying that shortage is upon us in a month or two. Beef cows and ewes replaced with trees. It is happening in the backblocks of nz now. I have never seen so many ewes and beef cow herds up for sale. Unfortunately most went to the processors ;-/
The government controlled power station in Huntly burns 250,000 tonnes of Indonesian coal a month to keep the lights on in Auckland . Producing monthly carbon emissions 670,000 tonnes . Equivalent to the monthly emissions of 2.06 million 2021 model 2wd Ford Rangers travelling 1500 km per month.
Toyota NZ says they have no plans to bring in a fully electric ute anytime soon. That may be true but I bet they will look to cash in and bring in a Hybrid one very soon when they realize demand is there. Of course they're not going to encourage people wait 24 months before buying a new hybrid truck. Their 2021/ 2022 petrol / diesel truck sales would get demolished! Never trust the salesman.
UTE purchases related to work activity should be exempt until an electric alternative exists, however I fail to believe the vast majority of these vehicles as well as large SUVs fall into this category. Those who buy a large polluting vehicle should be able to do so but face a tax large enough that should have a discouraging effect, especially if there are existing hybrid or even smaller petrol vehicles fulfilling the same purpose.
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