New car sales at nine year low for a December month

Economy / news

Without taxpayer subsidies, the new car market twisted while it shrank, but buyers gravitated to petrol hybrids rather than full EVs. And perhaps surprisingly, ICE cars regained some share in 2024

3rd Jan 25, 9:21am by David Chaston

New car sales were weak in December. In fact, at just 7,209 they were the lowest since 2015 for a December month.

That means for all of 2024, just 87,571 new passenger cars were sold in the year, the lowest annual level since the pandemic interruptions. And prior to that since 2014.

Most sales in 2023 were NEVs (new energy vehicles, a set that includes EVs, plug-in hybrids, and independent petrol hybrids). But in a sinking market in 2024, internal combustion engined cars (ICE) reclaimed their majority.

calendar ...	2024	share	2023	share
		%		%
ICE	46,318	52.9	51,279	46.3
Electric-only cars (BEV)	6,351	7.3	21,049	19.0
Plug-in hybrids (PHEV)	2,929	3.3	8,994	8.1
Petrol hybrids (HEV)	31,973	36.5	29,353	26.5

Total new car sales	87,571	100	110,675	100

It has been a year of substantial shifts as buyers seemed to shift away from full EVs, even plug-in hybrids, in favour of petrol hybrids if they wanted a NEV. Petrol hybrids were the only category to grow market share in 2024. ICE vehicles sales fell, but not by as much as the overall market.

Of course, the key distinguishing feature of 2024 was the ending of the Clear Car Discount subsidy by the taxpayer which was available until December 2023.

However, without the subsidy, the year ended with rising demand for petrol hybrids, driving the NEV category to more than a 60% share of the weak December market. Buyers do seem to be shifting to NEVs without the need for taxpayer incentives.

New vehicles sold

Select chart tabs

Source: NZTA

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109 Comments

by tothepoint | 3rd Jan 25, 9:41am 1735850500

Long live ICE motor vehicles. 🚗

TTP

by Dgm | 3rd Jan 25, 3:26pm 1735871195

All the speculators running low on cash to splurge on luxury items

by fortunr | 4th Jan 25, 1:07pm 1735949266

Time for these parasites to get gainful productive employment in the real economy.

by Millennial_Woman | 3rd Jan 25, 5:16pm 1735877808

Why?

by Pa1nter | 4th Jan 25, 1:23am 1735906991

Possibly because their viability is heavily tied to that of our wider existence. Without cheap and plentiful fossil fuels, many (most?) of us would be living in the dark and eating each other, the vast majority of items in your house would cease to exist. Including the BEV in the garage.

BEVs are a good symbolic sell though, because the connection between ones private vehicle and literally putting a hose dispensing fossil fuels into the filler port is a very simple distinction.

by Let me be Frank | 3rd Jan 25, 9:44am 1735850690

Hybrids (currently) do not attract RUCs

by Baywatch | 3rd Jan 25, 9:56am 1735851397

EVs Set To Outsell Gas Cars In China In 2025, 10 Years Ahead Of Schedule

In 2020, the Chinese government set a goal for EVs to account for 50% of new car sales by 2035

by Pa1nter | 3rd Jan 25, 10:02am 1735851750

Just 19 of China’s 137 current electric car brands will be profitable by the end of the decade

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-07-11/less-than-20-chinese…

There's got to be some upside in running an authoritarian command economy.

by mark_a | 3rd Jan 25, 10:12am 1735852323

I think just keep running your existing ICE in to the ground as long as you can…..

Why?

A. Best green option anyway….. (existing vehicle)

B. Each year you delay, BEV will become cheaper and better with a flow on impact to second hand ones……

C. Might become clearer which of the Chinese ones will survive so you can get parts for it.

by Pa1nter | 3rd Jan 25, 12:03pm 1735859020

Pretty much.

One spanner in the works of b) is that many of our used vehicles are ex Japan, where BEV uptake hasn't been that strong (BEV sales are under 3% in Japan, 10x lower than Chinas).

by General Comment | 3rd Jan 25, 12:13pm 1735859593

Perhaps there's a hole in the market for larger-scale importing of second hand vehicles from China. Kiwis just need to get over their thinking that China = low quality.

by Pa1nter | 3rd Jan 25, 12:53pm 1735862009

The steering wheel is on the wrong side in places like China or Korea.

by General Comment | 3rd Jan 25, 3:37pm 1735871825

Ah, true. I'd seen a small number of "used" imports from China for sale here and thought they were used in the Chinese market, maybe they were canceled orders from somewhere else.

by Rumpole | 3rd Jan 25, 4:55pm 1735876519

Japanese intelligent people - Chinese clever deceptive people, Kiwis Ba Ba Ba.

by Uninterested | 3rd Jan 25, 6:26pm 1735882008

BEVs are low there (except that tiny Nissan Sakura) but hybrids and mild hybrids are popular. Look at all the 2nd hand imports coming in now.

by AN Other | 3rd Jan 25, 7:46pm 1735886783

After the 2011 tsunami, electricity generation in Japan took a real hit and the narrative from the government was to conserve electricity as much as possible.

I think this is still having an impact - certainly Toyota pushed an anti-BEV narrative for many years - so I'm not totally surprised by the lack of Japanese BEVs.

by Speedmax | 3rd Jan 25, 10:23pm 1735896205

Because Japanese buy local brands and their carmakers barely make any EVs

by Colin Cameron | 3rd Jan 25, 3:53pm 1735872832

Just dont have a head on in one. I will keep my big full chassie landcrusier thanks as I know if i hit a car i will walk away. Meanwhile the GYD etc will be another stat

by Baywatch | 3rd Jan 25, 4:45pm 1735875907

I think you mean BYD but like the rest of your comment filled with errors..

The 2024 BYD Sealion 6 plug-in hybrid (PHEV) medium SUV has earned a prestigious five-star safety rating from ANCAP (Australasian New Car Assessment Program) under its stringent 2023-2025 testing standards.

by Uninterested | 3rd Jan 25, 6:28pm 1735882082

Spoken like a true blue SUV driver.

by Middleaged | 9th Jan 25, 11:49am 1736376574

Maybe. But the person you hit in their small fuel-efficient car while you where driving the kids 1.5Km to school in your Merivale tractor, will be decimated. But that's not your problem, is it?

by mikekirk29 | 3rd Jan 25, 10:33am 1735853609

Pop increase since 2015 makes new car sales even lower per head

by mikekirk29 | 3rd Jan 25, 10:34am 1735853677

https://wolfstreet.com/2025/01/02/what-should-teslas-stock-be-worth-aut…

Musk toast in under 12 months

by Rumpole | 3rd Jan 25, 4:57pm 1735876626

Bet the farm on that prediction have you? THought not!

by mikekirk29 | 3rd Jan 25, 5:04pm 1735877048

V intelligent response

Manias reverse esp when price earnings ratio is 103

Did you read the article?

by Toye | 3rd Jan 25, 11:03am 1735855401

Market is depressed. Financial crisis vibes.

by Rumpole | 3rd Jan 25, 4:58pm 1735876688

Your crystal ball is working, lend it to Luxflakes he needs one to predict the time.

by Zwifter | 3rd Jan 25, 11:32am 1735857138

No surprises there with a swing back to ICE. Plenty of good new and used cars to choose from and if you look after your engine they just go and go until you are pretty much just bored with it. I will potentially look at an EV one day, they need to start making 1 or 2 seater sports cars where range is not an issue as you never do distance in them as you cannot carry anything away with you. Ideal for the commute to the office or a blast in the weekends at the track.

by Uninterested | 3rd Jan 25, 6:31pm 1735882293

Yes, they will arrive someday.

But nothing like that huge horrible MG Cyberster thing.

by Speedmax | 4th Jan 25, 1:27am 1735907229

They’re coming. My project this year will be electric track car https://www.greatbritishsportscars.com/zeroev. But for urban commuting there’s nothing like a small electric EV. Fun to drive, recharge at home for price of a coffee (or free via solar when sun shines). No servicing.

by Zachary Smith | 3rd Jan 25, 12:13pm 1735859592

A hybrid vehicle is really just an ICE vehicle that's more efficient. It's a stretch to call them an electric vehicle.

by JimboJones | 3rd Jan 25, 12:42pm 1735861326

Agree

by Rumpole | 3rd Jan 25, 4:59pm 1735876788

Correct and it makes oil last longer whilst we find a solution and build infrastructure to service the BEV.

by Uninterested | 3rd Jan 25, 6:34pm 1735882488

True. Although some small IC cars are very economical. Like my Suzuki Alto: 4.7 l/100ks combined.

by ChrisOfNoFame | 4th Jan 25, 7:30pm 1735972205

Bettered by my Toyota Yaris Hybrid at 3.9 l per 100km. (If it was a PHEV it'd be zero.)

by Speedmax | 4th Jan 25, 1:19am 1735906751

Agree. As long as ICE is the primary power plant they’re simply an incremental improvement of that type. Some plug ins probably spend >50% of distance travelled on electric power, but spend that time carting heavy engine, gearbox and fuel tank around so compromised.

by Uninterested | 4th Jan 25, 6:54am 1735926844

NB. Just as compromised as an EV with its much larger/ heavier battery.

by Middleaged | 9th Jan 25, 11:51am 1736376698

Yes, but a 20% drop in fuel consumption really does make a difference to your weekly fill.

by JimboJones | 3rd Jan 25, 12:43pm 1735861435

So National took the discount away and people switched back to petrol. Weren’t they claiming that the discount didn’t work and was a subsidy to the rich (like Luxon) who would buy an EV anyway?

by Uninterested | 3rd Jan 25, 6:38pm 1735882738

Its getting tired this narrative about Luxton being rich.

I for one think that to have a poor PM would be really dangerous in terms of corruption and the worse version of that: foreign interference.

I know that being rich does not rule it out completely though. There was a previous.....

by JimboJones | 4th Jan 25, 10:09am 1735938571

I don’t mind that he’s rich either. It was National that implied he shouldn’t get a “subsidy”

by interesting1234 | 6th Jan 25, 10:41am 1736113300

Perhaps we should remember the salary of Adrian Orr in comparison at over $800k of our taxpayer dollars, more than the presidents of many many countries.

by nickb | 3rd Jan 25, 9:40pm 1735893623

aka as a temporary subsidy ended, as planned and as true for much of the World.

I am an avid EV driver, but the market lost its mojo after the limit of fast followers was reached. Charging infrastructure is still deficient. Worst I’ve encountered is Wellington/ Gaza, despite (or because? ) a Green Party mayor.

by Pa1nter | 4th Jan 25, 1:07am 1735906031

but the market lost its mojo after the limit of fast followers was reached.

I'd inclined to think this is the case, as many EVs today are significantly cheaper than they were while the subsidy was in place.

When's the next significant tipping point for the general market? Hard to say but most likely when the economics for most drivers is undisputable (i.e. a BEV with the same or better performance/range is cheaper to buy than ICE).

by Speedmax | 4th Jan 25, 1:42am 1735908134

Agree re tipping point. Meeting those criteria are now very close (already passed in world’s biggest market, China, where EVs outsold ICE in 2024). In many other markets EVs now arguably matching ICE on price, usually with better performance. Range of course a function of how much battery capacity is fitted, but plenty of fairly ordinary EVs (Polestar 2, VW ID7, Tesla 3) now beating 600 km on WLTP combined cycle meaning 4-500 km highway or >600 km city real world. Bigger than most bladders, and 80+% of charging happens at home anyway

by Uninterested | 4th Jan 25, 7:07am 1735927677

The full picture is more complicated than just purchase price and distance traveled per charge.

a) Do people have the money to buy anything new or second hand?

b) Road user charges need to be taken into account.

c) Power prices: will this green energy business result in the increase or falling of power prices. And that includes transmission as well.

d) Subsidies? Here or overseas. eg If Japan has subsidies, there will be more 2nd hand ones available here.

e) Penalties here or overseas. ie Penalties against ICEs.

f) Is it possible that the magnetic fields in EVs is high enough to be of concern?

g) More?

by Pa1nter | 4th Jan 25, 9:08am 1735934931

The Chinese market is a difficult example to draw much from, as most BEVs there are being sold at significant losses. And the longer ranges you've mentioned aren't at the cheaper end of the market.

by JimboJones | 4th Jan 25, 10:10am 1735938644

ICE are also cheaper today as they aren’t paying the dirty car duty.

I completely disagree with the argument that price is not a factor. If EV were cheaper and ICE were dearer (as would be the case with the clean car discount) I am 100% certain we would be buying more EV.

by ex agent | 4th Jan 25, 10:58am 1735941522

When you add back the high insurance costs, extra tyre wear ,RUC and more rapid depreciation ICE cars make far more economic sense. Try moving a BEV on. You have to give it away.

by Middleaged | 9th Jan 25, 11:54am 1736376894

I'd buy a full EV if I could find one that cost less than $20K second hand, could fit all the equipment that I regularly transport for work / hobbies, and could go Christchurch to Dunedin on a single charge. Until then, I'll keep my hybrid.

by Chaosinflesh | 3rd Jan 25, 12:50pm 1735861826

I wonder what the emigrants did with their cars when they left, and if that also has a significant effect on the new vehicle market? 1. Less people to buy, and 2. More discounted vehicles for sale tempting people away from new?

by solardb | 3rd Jan 25, 1:50pm 1735865432

Spent a few days in wellington over Xmas, riding the electric buses a couple of times.

Smooth( though the torquey motors pu lled wheelspins in the wet on slopes ), quiet, and felt like we were having a low impact.well

patronized too. The time we took the van into town, it felt more of a hindrance in comparison, and cost us as much as the bus fare in parking.

Poor man's ev experience, but if the govt wanted to support ev, then financing electric public transport is probably more cost effective than subsidizing evs.

No way this govt is going to let common sense get in the way of dogmatic pettiness though.

by AN Other | 3rd Jan 25, 7:52pm 1735887171

Yes - public (i.e. mass transit) transport of any sort should be better for the environment than private and electric public transport so much so.

I'm being continuously told by a Tesla zealot that by 2030 we will all be using Robo-taxis so private ownership of cars will become a thing of the past. If it happens, on the strength of the Tesla Robo-taxi event in 2024, they won't be Tesla Robo-taxis.

by Pragmatist | 4th Jan 25, 10:02am 1735938158

They're an idiot, robo taxis doesn't address the rush hour problem. And if they are all expected to drive you to work then depart for somewhere else for parking it doubles the trips.

by Middleaged | 9th Jan 25, 11:56am 1736377014

Flying cars are coming! Admittedly, you would need a lot of them to help out much in rush hour.

Joby Aviation S4 2.0 (pre-production prototype)

by Speedmax | 4th Jan 25, 1:49am 1735908554

We used to have electric trolley buses in our cities. Almost silent, no local pollution. Remember seeing them on Queen St as a kid. “Progress” comes with some very strange definitions

by Crazylekiwi | 3rd Jan 25, 2:46pm 1735868797

NZ car market needs to include New and Used first registrations. We are an oddball because we import so many used vehicles from primarily Japan.

When you do this you see a very sad picture for EV adoption in NZ. To be clear, the only true EV is one that only has a battery (BEV). Every other vehicle that has an internal combustion engine in its drivetrain is an ICE vehicle.

For 2024, this is the breakdown for passenger vehicles for first registrations: -

Petrol: 88,994 48.06%

Hybrid: 75,666 40.86%

Diesel: 8,606 4.65%

BEV: 7,410 4.00%

PHEV: 4,513 2.44%

BEV vehicles are cheaper to purchase now than before the government rebate was removed.

RUC's for all vehicles whether by Petrol purchase or odometer measure has meant that all vehicles now pay for road maintenance and construction.

It's going to take a very long time to electrify our fleet with BEV at these current rates. It will take government mandates to achieve.

by Let me be Frank | 3rd Jan 25, 3:14pm 1735870481

"NZ car market needs to include New and Used first registrations. We are an oddball because we import so many used vehicles from primarily Japan."

Dont the annual sales statistics include used imports?...I thought they were a measure of vehicles first registered in NZ for the year, not necessarily 'new'.

by GenerationY | 3rd Jan 25, 4:49pm 1735876185

Unfortunately a lot of misinformation in this space so I’ll put in a few facts and then some opinions too.

1) studies show that the break even point of manufacturing emissions of a bev is only 2-3 years now. Particularly in a country like NZ with a clean grid. So it’s worse to keep using your old car. This is why cash for clunkers is a good program. New Zealand also has some terrible old cars because we had loose diesel laws and heaps of bad diesels on the road that are terrible polluters - old hilux, Pajero, etc.

2) EVs are 61X less likely to have a fire than ICE. And it’s only getting better from here with the LFP batteries

now some opinion

EVs make a lot of sense if you’re not a petrol head who loves motors. They deliver a better more power and smoother ride, they eliminate pollution in cities, they reduce the importation of oil, they drive more money back to our partially owned power companies, and at the moment they are pretty good value in NZ.

if your in the market for A car id seriously recommend checking out an ev along with whatever petrol model your looking at. A 2022 Tesla model 3 can be had for 37k, a 2018 Nissan leaf for 15k (great for an everyday run about), a 2023 BMW Ix3 for 60k, and a brand new 2024 Kia ev6 long range for 59k.

now yes you may not be able to tow your big boat with these. But for anything else, even road trips around most of the country the 400km plus range makes it fairly easy. And for the 1% of other trips there are always rental cars :-)

by Zwifter | 3rd Jan 25, 5:44pm 1735879491

61 times less likely to catch fire ? That's good for a laugh. Lets just see how not only the batteries cause problems but the fast chargers start causing problems. Anything that demands high current is a major fire risk long term, that's just the way it is. People are going to demand faster and faster charging. There is no way I would charge an EV with it sitting in an internal garage.

by Speedmax | 4th Jan 25, 1:57am 1735909071

Nonsense. How do you think electricity gets to your house or workplace? High current electricity has been all over the country, all over the world, for well over 100 years without being a major fire risk. Uninformed biased nonsense - perhaps a decent drive in a modern EV would help

by JimboJones | 4th Jan 25, 10:12am 1735938757

Every EV fire makes the headlines, but the much more common ICE fires don’t.

by Pragmatist | 4th Jan 25, 10:24am 1735939450

High currents are avoided in the distribution network wherever possible by using high voltage and lower current to move power about, stepping it down to lower voltages close to the final point of use.

High currents lead to higher I²R losses and require bigger heavier conductors and switchgear.

Next time you are at a decent EV charger look about, chances are there is a transformer within 100m of the charger cabinets stepping 11kV down to 400V to avoid long high current runs.

by Speedmax | 5th Jan 25, 12:46am 1735991199

Agree, was trying to keep it simple for financial website (I’m a geeky engineer well familiar with Ohm’s Law). My point stands - the currents used to charge EVs (<500A) are completely normal in distribution networks that have operated safely for longer than than any of our lifetimes. There is no unusual risk in charging EVs (less than exposed highly flammable liquid being pumped into petrol cars), and anyone who suggests otherwise is just scaremongering and spreading BS

by Uninterested | 3rd Jan 25, 6:43pm 1735882981

When a Pajero or Safari go past me when I'm riding I hold my breath for as long as possible.

by Uninterested | 3rd Jan 25, 6:46pm 1735883162

And a comment about BEVs and speed bumps: I believe that they do not travel over speed bumps at all well given their sheer weight.

by AN Other | 3rd Jan 25, 8:03pm 1735887788

Unsprung weight relative to spring weight would suggest otherwise.

I'm pretty sure old Jags, Mercs and Rolls Royces rode over speed bumps better than lighter cars.

by Speedmax | 4th Jan 25, 2:06am 1735909595

Not really. The type of car, and stiffness of suspension, is a much bigger factor. I have petrol, diesel and electric - all go over bumps differently. The petrol is by far the worst over bumps but that’s because this particular car is designed to carve up the bends. The city-biased EV is much smoother despite being about the same weight

by linklater01 | 4th Jan 25, 8:39am 1735933142

Uninterested,

What a bizarre comment. Of course EVs travel over speedbumps. We have had a Leaf for almost 4 years now and use it for as much of our local driving as possible. we regularly drive over speedbumps. It was bought secondhand as a Japanese import and the SOH of the battery was 83%. That has barely changed since then. Its range fully charged is only marginally less now.

by Gerrit | 4th Jan 25, 2:13am 1735909987

You miss a few very important considerations.

1.- A very large cohort of New Zealanders can only afford a car worth between $5K and $20K. Heavily reliance on Japanese Imports.

2.- This cohort has needs for a larger car than a Leaf.

3.- This cohort tends to live in larger family or co-living (flatmates / shared house) situations and can have up to 4 or 5 cars per household (came to South or West Auckland and see car to house ratios).

4.- Volume of cars in each household not conducive to overnight trickle charging. (physically as well a financially when needing to split an electricity bill)

5.- This cohort is being forced into higher density housing, making car charging facilities at the house impossible (no off street parking).

6.- This cohort needs their cars as public transport is a joke (especially in Auckland - no trains for 6 weeks - busses run to hubs needing two or three bus changes to get anywhere).

7.- This cohort does not work in a CBD but in industrial parks dotted around the cities edge. (try getting public transport to an industrial park - especially for shift workers)

8- Your 2022 Tesla is still $20K over priced for this cohort. Maybe in another 4 years will it fit into the market to suit this cohort financial car affordability profile.

9- Your Leaf is too small to take a family to church and the beach on a Sunday. (tried getting granny and her walking stick into the back seat of a Leaf?).

10- It would be interesting to see a breakdown of car buying affordability to income ratio. I guess the volume of people who could afford a $60K electric car is a lot smaller than the cohort who can only afford a $5K to $20K car (of any motive power).

11- The new cars (not just electric) are way, way over specified for this cohort and no longer "fixable" by the average Joe Blog. This cohort can easily repair a cheap Camry (huge range of spares including ready to insert engines/transmissions - easily get to 350K kilometres before another cheap Japanese car replacement), but much harder to repair your always online and monitored BMW for example (loose your warranty for home repairs?).

by interesting1234 | 6th Jan 25, 10:48am 1736113733

Very astute. I'll keep fixing my 2001 toyota myself as needed at over 300,000km's on the clock currently. Third party insurance as I already paid the value of the car back in full insurance premiums over the years. Makes no sense to buy newish vehicles if you can fix them yourself, and it fits your budget, as there's always bargains to be had with cars as long as you know what to look for, and are willing to sink a little time to fix the issues that cause them to be so cheap.

by Zwifter | 6th Jan 25, 11:48am 1736117321

Absolutely. Automotive mechanics should be taught in schools, everyone ends up with a car and you need to know the basics on how to look after it and it saves you a fortune in the long run. I recently was able to afford my first ever new car after running older cars for decades and doing all the work on them myself from turbo upgrades to cam belt changes to simple oil and filter changes. In the end they stop depreciating in value and flatline and you pretty much get a car that's costing you next to nothing to drive about in.

by Pragmatist | 4th Jan 25, 10:09am 1735938599

Your 2nd "fact", isn't a fact, it's a totally shonky calculation with no basis in common sense.

Taking the number of [ICE/EV] cars sold in the prior year and dividing by the number of [ICE/EV] cars that caught fire is nonsense. It totally ignores the fact that the ICE fleet includes cars that are 30+ years old and many modified by idiots along the way, while the average age of EVs is probably about 5 years at most.

by Gerrit | 4th Jan 25, 11:30am 1735943437

All cars are subject to a WOF check and there would be very few "modified by idiots" passing that muster.

Of more concern is the owners' "right to repair" being removed from new cars (void warranty unless factory repairs are done at a huge marked up expense). Especially so with ECU modules.

Even aged EV's are still beyond the price range of a large cohort in the population that can only afford $5K to $20K cars.

by Pragmatist | 4th Jan 25, 12:10pm 1735945814

The study is from America, not NZ.

And LOL if you think a WOF will even pick up most braindead mods likely to result in a fire.

Most people by that definition can't afford a ranger, but thos bloody things are like cockroaches.

by Gerrit | 4th Jan 25, 12:34pm 1735947292

I think you are confusing my comments with someone else regarding fires. My comments was in regards affordability to a large cohort of vehicle users.

Ford Rangers are driven by another cohort in the population normally self employed or company owned service vehicles. Most I would say are leased.

Ford Rangers are not driven by the factory / fast food / service / etc. worker or those on minimum wages.

If WOF checks do not pick up non compliance cars that is a problem for the WOF system. I cant get mismatched tires through a check so it seems pretty robust. Biggest cause of fires are electrical and mostly due to incorrect fuse usage. True the WOF does not check fuses for correct rating. Maybe that could be added to the checks they do?

by Pragmatist | 4th Jan 25, 12:45pm 1735947947

Right, so you just wandered into the complete wrong thread then? Goodbye.

by Gerrit | 4th Jan 25, 7:26pm 1735972001

Sadly you are no longer a pragmatist but wondering into a sub thread you did not bother to read and comprehend. Hello, wake up and be coqnitive of your surroundings.

This was my post seeing it is hard to scroll up;

You miss a few very important considerations.

1.- A very large cohort of New Zealanders can only afford a car worth between $5K and $20K. Heavily reliance on Japanese Imports.

2.- This cohort has needs for a larger car than a Leaf.

4.- Volume of cars in each household not conducive to overnight trickle charging. (physically as well a financially when needing to split an electricity bill)

5.- This cohort is being forced into higher density housing, making car charging facilities at the house impossible (no off street parking).

6.- This cohort needs their cars as public transport is a joke (especially in Auckland - no trains for 6 weeks - busses run to hubs needing two or three bus changes to get anywhere).

7.- This cohort does not work in a CBD but in industrial parks dotted around the cities edge. (try getting public transport to an industrial park - especially for shift workers)

8- Your 2022 Tesla is still $20K over priced for this cohort. Maybe in another 4 years will it fit into the market to suit this cohort financial car affordability profile.

9- Your Leaf is too small to take a family to church and the beach on a Sunday. (tried getting granny and her walking stick into the back seat of a Leaf?).

by Pragmatist | 4th Jan 25, 7:41pm 1735972895

And my post was NOT a reply to that. You appear to be unable to follow the threading in this comment section.

by Zwifter | 4th Jan 25, 8:35pm 1735976115

To be honest most people cannot follow the threads on here its a total mess. The Facebook idea is better, your reply automatically comes up with who you are replying to. Sometimes I have replied to someone and it turns up 2 or 3 pages down, hopeless so I put their handle in first.

by GenerationY | 4th Jan 25, 8:51pm 1735977067

My post was in response to this post which was more about new car sales and second hand car imports.

however your right that for some cohorts it doesn’t make sense and these people shouldn’t be punished. And under the old clean car program most weren’t as they are buying second or 3rd hand cars.

The main point of my post was to lament the removal of the subsidy, but also say that despite the negative news and people’s strange defending of petrol cars, for a lot of people evs make sense now.

by GenerationY | 3rd Jan 25, 4:51pm 1735876304

I wish clean cars had remained. It should have been tweaked and made tax neutral rather than stopped. Getting polllution out of our cities and driving down oil imports made sense.

people are emotional beasts and getting anything free or tax reduced from the government really helped drive behaviour in a way that was positive for our country.

by nickb | 3rd Jan 25, 9:33pm 1735893227

Luckily Tesla is not just a car company. Although currently, only 12% Tesla income is due to power solutions, the proportion of income due to this market has been increasing prior to the current lil in EV sales.

Joe Biden’s 100% tariff on Chinese cars won’t have helped Tesla, but the World’s a big place. Yes Biden, who would have thunk.

Personally, I couldn’t give a cr*p what happens to Tesla, but we need to bear in mind that narratives about Tesla will be increasingly politically motivated.

by solardb | 3rd Jan 25, 10:07pm 1735895241

There's lots of alternatives to Tesla in the Powerwall market too. I doubtthey Will be a major player in a few years time.

by Hans Brink | 3rd Jan 25, 11:13pm 1735899188

And do not forget Tesla made something like $700ml out of carbon credit sales. Sure would help their bottom line.

739 million to be precise, US$ that is.

by Jonny.Foe | 4th Jan 25, 8:06am 1735931201

Imagine if the people that moan about our chronic current account deficit are the same people that are devoted to old tech automobiles that devour imported oil and spew pollution?

by ChrisOfNoFame | 4th Jan 25, 7:45pm 1735973137

Yup. Cognitive dissonance is what kiwis excel at. Good that we excel at something ....

by ex agent | 4th Jan 25, 8:44am 1735933461

I had a phev but got rid of it when I realised how much it was depreciating. Back to petrol and while I miss the electric car experience I am enjoying the thought that what I drive now will be easy to move on. People who drive electric cars in NZ currently are going to get a fright when they try to sell them. Currently I see new electric cars with 33 per cent discounts and they are not selling. What will they be worth when the sucker who buys them drives them off the lot.

by Zwifter | 4th Jan 25, 10:34am 1735940045

If you buy the right ICE right now the resale price will only go up. Trying to get a performance manual car now is starting to get impossible. Car makers are getting more and more boring by the year now. The move to SUV's has totally killed the fun market.

by Hans Brink | 4th Jan 25, 11:13am 1735942406

I guess if you are a boy racer that might seem the case. I thought vehicles were supposed to be a convenient mode of transport.

by Zwifter | 4th Jan 25, 12:37pm 1735947449

Some people just love to drive. Anyone still driving a manual is a true "Driver" and an enthusiast. Hopefully when they start making BEV sports cars they will have a manual gearbox option. Unfortunately the sports car ICE market is being left with the likes of Porsche as the only option and they are now unbelievably expensive to the point I couldn't justify buying one now even if I had a couple of million in the bank.

by Pragmatist | 4th Jan 25, 12:56pm 1735948605

EVs don't need multispeed gearboxes as they aren't limited to the poor speed torque relationship of an ICE. Some extreme performance EVs use a 2 spd gearbox to extend the speed limit of the car beyond where the electric motor would mechanically disintegrate with a single speed box.

At best you will get software faked gearchanges like the Ioniq N EV. No manufacturer is going to put all those unreliable expensive bits into a car when they are not needed.

by Zwifter | 4th Jan 25, 3:03pm 1735956232

Manufacturers are already putting in expensive bits you don't really need. The "Needs" are driven by the consumer demand, nobody really "Needs" a great big SUV but they have taken over the market. The gearbox would be there for the pure fun of it.

by Pragmatist | 4th Jan 25, 3:10pm 1735956600

These would be the same manufacturers that are eliminating manual gearboxes because of consumer "needs"? 🤣

by Zwifter | 4th Jan 25, 8:08pm 1735974494

Some tried like Porsche with the PDK transmission and many Porsche owners hated it so they bought back the manual. Certain manufacturers are retaining the manual for performance cars due to demand. There are so many boring cars out there now with auto transmissions but there is definitely still a market for performance manuals. Toyota started the whole "GR" thing with manuals at the fore, so has Honda with the Type R. Still cars around for petrol heads but they are getting expensive.

by interesting1234 | 6th Jan 25, 10:56am 1736114192

Trying to get a performance manual car now is starting to get impossible.

Starting? It's been getting that way since the early 2000's when the level of production of manual cars started dropping off and imports were predominantly auto, tiptronic or both. Fun cars were 70's-90's Japanese which were overengineered and connected the car to the drover instead of being focused around emissions and comfort. Alas, those days are gone and there's still some ok cars out there (I'd love a hoon in a 2022 corolla GR) but few and far between if you liked the golden era.

by AN Other | 4th Jan 25, 1:44pm 1735951478

If you kept the PHEV for ten or more years it would hardly have mattered what the rate of depreciation was.

I've got a 12 year old BEV (not a Leaf I might add) and while it was secondhand when I bought it, I have no intention of selling it for a long. Battery appears to have had no degradation at all.

by solardb | 4th Jan 25, 2:49pm 1735955352

Yes , selling a car early to avoid depreciation makes no sense, the biggest depreciation happens the minute you drive it off the new car showrooms floor.

by ex agent | 4th Jan 25, 3:53pm 1735959193

If I had kept it for ten years it would have been worth nothing and I doubt it would have been still reliable. It’s cheaper to have an efficient petrol car than have a BEV or PHEV. The extra cost of buying fuel is still cheaper than the high insurance, depreciation and running costs of electric cars. And you have a spare and no range anxiety and delays at public charging stations ( if they are actually working.)

by Just a farmer | 4th Jan 25, 7:21pm 1735971708

I’m very open to the idea of driving an EV, but I still can’t find anything cheaper to own than my Toyota Camry.

Cheap to buy because nobody wants an ex-rental, base model sedan. Paid for in cash while I would have had to finance a decent EV. Surprisingly good on gas for my open road running, and costs very little to service.

210,000km now and outside of regular servicing and tyres the total cost of repairs has been $120 for a worn tie rod end.

by Zwifter | 5th Jan 25, 1:16am 1735993017

Yep it will go forever. Sold my last Toyota with 232k on the clock for more than I bought if for. Regular servicing is the secret.

by AN Other | 5th Jan 25, 5:30pm 1736051433

@ ex agent - sorry, you'll have to expand on this for me. In what sense is depreciation cheaper for an ICE vehicle than a BEV?

Also, can you please list the running costs of a BEV vs an ICEV so that I can understand what you are referring to? While I can agree that (for example) servicing from a dealer is more for a PHEV than a comparable ICEV (Mitsubishi Outlander and Eclipse Cross are two excellent examples) I disagree that BEV servicing is higher.

by Citizen Smith | 6th Jan 25, 3:51pm 1736131878

Been trying to find a 2-3 year old BEV at a low price, I'm happy paying a RUC, when my fuel cost is two thirds that of an ICE. If you only drive a few km's a week buying fossil fuel isn't a drag, but when your driving hundreds a week the low running cost of a BEV wins out. Who wants to sell a car that can cruse to half a million kilometers with no exhaust that can charge from the sun or using cheap night rate electricity whilst you sleep.

by Small Kev | 5th Jan 25, 1:06pm 1736035612

Because who wouldn’t want a driveway full of unsellable BEVs with batteries that are practically retirement-ready? Dream come true, really.

by AN Other | 5th Jan 25, 5:32pm 1736051564

Don't buy a first generation Nissan Leaf and don't buy into the FUD distributed by the oil industry shivs. Then you'll be fine.

by Middleaged | 9th Jan 25, 12:13pm 1736378016

My brother just bought a knackered leaf. It only has a range of about 60Km, but that is more than double what he needs to get to work and back.

by Brutus Iscariot | 6th Jan 25, 12:21pm 1736119262

I'm an EV convert after driving my partner's Model Y. Smooth ride, full torque at your fingertips at any speed, handles well on the open road too.

Range for the next refresh will comfortably exceed 500km in the worst real world conditions, which let's be honest, is more than most people will need 99% of the time (Auckland to Taupo is less than 300km).

Yes, i miss the sound my old Subaru H6 engine made when i floored it, but there's no doubt BEV is the way of the future.

We're just in this transition phase where the tech curve has been so rapidly advancing that early generation EVs are stranded "inferior goods" due to their relatively short range. The EV market will stabilise in the next few years.

Oh yeah, and petrol hybrids are garbage, total waste of time. Lugging around two powertrains, more maintenance etc. They will die out completely in the next few years as more entry level EVs are brought to market.

by Zwifter | 6th Jan 25, 5:02pm 1736136130

Love the H6 engine in my Legacy 3.0R, probably the best engine Subaru ever made.

by Citizen Smith | 6th Jan 25, 1:13pm 1736122429

The problem I have with Mr Chaston's opinion is no mention of the tax advantage hybrids have over all other road users. With the current road tax settings hybrids pay less per KM travelled. The solution to this problem according to Minister Simeon Brown is a universal RUC yeah right.