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Chris Hipkins says new taxes will be needed to fund healthcare and pensions for an ageing population without running up debt in the future

Economy / news
Chris Hipkins says new taxes will be needed to fund healthcare and pensions for an ageing population without running up debt in the future
Chris Hipkins speaks as part of a panel at a World Economic Forum event in Tianjin
Chris Hipkins speaks as part of a panel at a World Economic Forum event in Tianjin

Labour leader Chris Hipkins confirmed this week that he will contest the 2026 election with a policy to broaden the tax base, although the details haven’t yet been drawn up. 

The former prime minister told a Stuff podcast that an additional tax, on something other than wages, would be part of his 2026 campaign to reclaim the Beehive.

For the past three decades it had been possible to provide world-class healthcare, education, and retirement while keeping government spending below 30% of GDP, he said. 

But the ageing population means that will no longer be possible. Continuing to offer public healthcare and universal superannuation would push spending above that line. 

Labour also wants to balance the budget and therefore would have to raise revenue from somewhere. 

“We do need to have a significant conversation with the country about tax. But I don’t think we need to be jingoistic about it — even the current government is looking at new forms of revenue,” he said. 

Tax capital 

Hipkins doesn’t want to take that new revenue from workers, who already bear the bulk of the tax burden. International economists, such as those from the OECD and IMF, have told New Zealand it relies too much on taxing wages and salaries, and not other forms of income.

"Philosophically, I think regular bracket adjustment … is a sensible idea. As long as you’ve got alternative revenue sources to make sure the Government can fill the hole it creates,” he said. 

The Coalition Government had also recognised the need to broaden the tax base, Hipkins said, and was doing so by increasing vehicle registration fees, putting road user charges on electric vehicles, and tripling the visitor levy. 

He also argued it was looking to expand the taxation of capital gains with plans to impose ‘value capture’ taxes on properties which benefit from future infrastructure investments. 

Rather than continue this piecemeal approach, Labour has been pondering some sort of economy-wide tax — such as a more comprehensive capital gains or wealth tax.

A somewhat vague post, shared by Labour Whangaparāoa’s Facebook page, showed former revenue minister David Parker has been pitching a “capital income tax” to party members.

It sounds a lot like the wealth tax he designed with Grant Roberston in 2023, which Hipkins vetoed, except perhaps more focused on taxing increases in wealth. 

A sensible shepherd 

Barbara Edmonds, the party’s finance spokesperson, told attendees at the FSC24 Conference that she was reviewing the whole fiscal strategy and looking at more than just “progressive tax reform”.

“You can’t just look at debt without looking at expenses and taxes. You need to look at it wholly, and if you change one area you need to look for unintended consequences in other areas.” 

Edmonds doesn’t see herself as the key decision-maker on tax policy. She has previously said her role was to inform the internal debate and support the decision made by the party.

Some have speculated she and Hipkins may both favour a more traditional capital gains tax over the wealth tax, advocated by Parker and some of the more leftist Labour MPs.

However, Hipkins told Stuff his problem with the 2023 proposal was related to its timing and the ability of the party to adequately explain it to the public, rather than its actual design.

Official views

The Treasury produces a document assessing the Crown’s long-term fiscal position every four years. It is due an update next year, but in 2021 it said policy changes were needed. 

“Our projections indicate that the gap between expenditure and revenue will grow significantly as a result of demographic change and historical trends, in the absence of any offsetting action by governments. This will cause net debt to increase rapidly as a share of GDP by 2060.” 

Changing tax rates or limiting spending growth would help to close the growing gap between revenue and expenditure but neither would be enough on its own. 

“This means that future governments will likely need to draw on multiple levers and consider trade-offs across different policy options in responding to our fiscal challenges,” it said. 

“There are many ways in which governments could seek to raise additional revenue from existing and new tax bases beyond personal income tax. All have trade-offs; there is no perfect way to raise revenue, and different levers have different economic and social impacts.”

Treasury has long advocated for a more comprehensive capital gains tax. It said this could raise around 1.2% of GDP each year, although that was highly uncertain. A wealth tax would likely raise significantly more, but could come with unintended consequences. 

As the agency said, there are no perfect taxes, but there is a growing consensus that New Zealand needs more of the imperfect ones, and Labour will be pitching one to voters.

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208 Comments

Chris Hipkins talks to Jack Tame on QandA, and does a reasonable job of explaining how new tax sources must be found as New Zealand's population continues to age, which will mean more over-65s claiming the social welfare benefit called NZ Superannuation, and fewer young workers footing the bill.
He also (and this will delight Bernard Hickey) embraces the idea of busting the 30% debt level that National and Labour have jointly imposed on governments. If we need to borrow to invest in infrastructure, just do it.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/09/08/full-interview-chris-hipkins-on-labo…
https://youtu.be/5umufC4NKxY?si=A7IdHMVQ9tOrzBb5

I think the sensible way to fund future superannuation payments is to tax the unearned income from capital gains, inheritances, and gifts ... and deposit it in the NZ Superannuation Fund, which ought not to be taxed on its earnings. Capital gains taxes should be on realised gains on sale, less inflation. They need to include the family home. Other assets, such as bank deposits, should likewise not be taxed on their inflation component.

Hipkins doesn't want to increase income tax. But I think New Zealand's top tax rates need to be lifted to match Australia's. The state needs that extra annual revenue to lift our health care out of its disastrous decline. All health care should be free, accessible, timely, and comprehensive. Then no one will need to waste money on private health insurance. Think of the saving!

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One quick way to ruin a countries economy, drive people to Australia faster, ruin a whole huge industry of home renovation/owner /flipper, and drag people's present & future wealth further into the gutter while making house values climb is to introduce another tax on money made selling your family home / homes.

 

A better way is to heavily charge a annual fee for houses not permanently lived in  more than 6 months of the year.

 

Even better is to stop taking every avenue away from Joe Average to make money and incentivise the way to make money in avenues where they can tax easily... Like a great TD Rate that is government guaranteed up to 20M. While at the same time capping mortgage interest rates at a fair rate.( Stop the bank$ gauging)

Kiwis will always find a way around things.

I would invest my money in a Great TD rather than property 100%!!! and that would drive house prices down while not  making me any poorer.

The recent 6% rate has seen that happen!

 

But even better is to just stop the billions wasted on dumb things like 

1. Huge parliament and it hangers ons

2. Separate depts that are already covered by " Kiwi Depts"

3. Corporate tax dodgers like Google.

4.  waste

5. Minorities woke demands 

6. Overseas donations to Pacific islands on the Chinese tit.

7. Dot dot dot ..

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Better still the government needs to stop taxing the interest on your Term Deposit and go back to where it was in the 1980's, no tax on TD's. Basically tax is stuffing up people trying to get ahead, imagine no tax while you build that house deposit. All that's happened over the years is that people have been pushed into tax evasion and disincentivised to do anything and they constantly try and avoid getting screwed.

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Yes no tax on TDs, or GCT on housing investments. As long as they both do, or both don't. I suspect the CGT will inevitably arrive when the Super and Health budgets demand it and we will finally have a level playing field.

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Back to no tax on TDs? I had those through the entire 1980s and interest was always taxed for me. The only perk I can remember was tax free contributions to whole of life insurance policies. Gov couldn't let that last though.

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No I remember it well. When I started working at 11 or 12 I paid no tax on my interest. Basically it became theft by stealth after that. Then there was a time when filled out your annual tax return paperwork for a few years you were able to claim it back and then one day the option to claim it back just disappeared.

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Some learning for you Grifter ....

In 1978 a Child Tax Rebate was introduced to avoid the need for children to pay tax on small amounts of income (excluding interest and dividends). The rebate was set at $78 per annum, which allowed children to earn up to $538 per annum ($10.35 per week) tax free. The rebate applied to children under the age of 15, or under the age of 18 and attending secondary school. The Child Tax Rebate was increased to $156 from 1 October 1982, the equivalent of a 20% rebate on $780 of income. It was later renamed a tax credit for children and subsequently replaced in 2012 with a “$2,340 active income exemption” for taxpayers under 18 years of age. 

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Thanks. Informative.

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My parents started paying that to me as pocket money

 

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LittleAkaloa, I almost stopped reading at this bit:

"... ruin a whole huge industry of home renovation/owner /flipper, ... "

Renovators and flippers should already be paying tax on their activities, including the capital gain. Thus they'd be unaffected.

Home owners are free to renovate to their hearts content if - as is most likely - the family home is excluded (which I think is a market distorting paradigm that unfairly benefits the wealthy and should be dumped).

Please bone up on tax law if you want to be taken seriously.

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Yeah I read that and thought it was sarcasm at first.

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No. All income should be taxed equally

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Whatever

They were gutless last term

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Living in the past again, HouseMouse?

Certainly not the most constructive approach to a very significant and consequential subject that would bring NZ's disgustingly out-of-date and unfair tax system a step closer to what better countries than ours have done.

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They were full of hot air last term. What confidence that they would follow through if in power next time?

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Even that staunch life long supporter of Labour , Chris Trotter  , left them ... distraught that they weren't Labour of old , the champions of the workers  ... they'd become the heroes of a wealthy chardonnay socialist inner city set  ... wokeism oozing out of every pore ... political correctness ramped up to the nenth degree ...

... they will not win government again until the incompetent failures of the past are removed ... Chris Napkins / Megan " no gas ! " Woods / David " tax the f out of them " Parker ... all must go ...

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This time they with make an announcement about how they will one day soon announce a year of delivery!

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Nothing he ever says happens. Best ignored. Fix health, fix education, fix crime….failure after failure. Now, fix the tax system by punishing the organised and the ambitious. He won’t have a job by the end of the year. He is a loser, dropping in the polls each month. This latest brain fart will ensure his quick demise.

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Yeah he’s a flaky fraud

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Hey, we're not talking about Luxon.

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Did you mean to say Arden? Sure Arden had 5 year in power during which she failed spectacularly to deliver, but Hipkins also had a year (which is longer then the current lot have been in power) and did not deliver anything meaningful.

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Why do we have to put up with his rantings

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Well, he would say that wouldn't he. Labour are addicted to taxing other peoples money because they have no clue how to create wealth themselves any other way.

"Philosophically, I think regular bracket adjustment … is a sensible idea. As long as you’ve got alternative revenue sources to make sure the Government can fill the hole it creates,” he said. 

An alternative view would say that the Govt (both Labour and National led) has been maintaining the bracket creep theft by stealth for over a decade while the last Labour increased fiscal debt by 80% with nothing significant to show for its profligacy. 

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Here's a little something that won't have occurred to Chris Napkins & his Lack of Brains Trust ... we are pouring ample quantities of money into healthcare  . . It's just , our healthcare system is poorly designed and discourages competition & innovation ... Luxon doesn't get it , either  , to be fair ...

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Actually, out health system is way underfunded. We spend $3900usd per Capita vs Oz at 6k and the US at 12k. Interesting that the most competitive health system is also the most expensive.

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You can’t compare us to continental superpowers. How much do other small pacific island nations such Singapore or Taiwan spend per capita on healthcare?

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You also can't compare us to Micro-states like Singapore, or countries with 23 million plus people on a smaller landmass like Taiwan. They’re also fundamentally different from us in terms of cultural similarities with the US or Australia which culturally are much more similar.

New Zealand has around 20 people per square kilometre, Singapore has around 8322 people per square kilometre. This dramatically changes how they can deliver services and makes for a much more efficient system compared to our healthcare which by necessity has to be much more localised and cater to a more disperse population.

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All health care ought to be free, accessible, timely, and comprehensive. It is affordable if we want it to be affordable. What is lacking is a sense of social responsibility. The comfortable middle class have become addicted to paying for private medical insurance for themselves and their families, and bugger the poor. The problem with that attitude is that the poor don't disappear: they simply become the ill, disabled, non-working poor, and a much greater drain on society than if they had free and easy access to a properly functioning health service.

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The reason private healthcare exists is because public health has largely failed. If public healthcare performed to expectations there would not be this massive gap in the market for the private operators to succeed.

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Actually private health care is of no use if you have an accident - you have to go public as ACC covers it not your expensive private cover. Sometimes after much delay and upset ACC will pay private hospitals to do the op the public hos is too overloaded to provide but it is still "public ACC" not your private cover. Interesting to know whether how the cost of our private cover compares with countries with no ACC - are we getting a discount for the fact that our glossy private cover is in fact limited?  

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Except that we are loosing all our healthcare workers overseas due to the poor salaries on offer here.

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I think this is great news, a few more policies like this will ensure they lose the next election as well. Go Labour !

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I think he is hilarious. He has no idea. Their strategy seems to make the biggest mess they possibly can, ie ruin the economy, place us in massive debt, have people addicted to handouts, and then they have the answer to fix it all…..tax everyone with an asset. So the clear strategy is to make a mess, blame someone else, and make up a solution that punishes everyone…..useless.

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I would love to agree with you, but unfortunately 6 years of Jacinda Ardern and her identity politics has given a large group of society the belief that they are owed other people's money.  The opportunity to seize it from them would be taken avariciously and with great glee. 

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What he really needed to announce was a tax cut on personal taxes, i.e. first $10k tax free 25% up to $75k 35% thereafter.

Then announce whatever wealth tax.

Instead his broaden the tax base message is lost under the whining and moaning as will be evidenced in this comments section.

So no progress will be made BAU.

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Nailed it. Less pain for workers, a little more pain for the landed gentry

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Australia and Britain both have the first NZ$20,000 (or thereabout) of income tax-free. A problem with trying to introduce that in New Zealand is that income tax is muddied by Working for Families rebates: many people already pay no tax. A headache to unwind.

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WFF needs an overhaul. As Terry Baucher noted in an article a while back, the taxation is incorrect as it significantly penalises those on WFF when it comes to abatement, so much so that it is hardly worth having a sole earner getting a pay rise as they wind up with less in the hand at the end of the week between WFF and income vs if they didn't get said pay rise. This is important to resolve as it will entice more to progress their careers and get back into the work force given the financial benefits are worthwhile, vs the current system which disincentivises this

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What should be happening is all parents should receive way more benefits from the state. Like 12 months maternity leave, paternity leave etc etc. along with further payments to support parents until the child turns 18. 

Kids are the countries future - yet we actively incentivise (in the form of cash) the poorly educated demographics of society, who have likely had a very poor childhood experience. And we do nothing at all, in fact we penalise, the middle and upper class of society for having children. 

The fact that we spend $20 billion per year on millionaire* retirees super is atrocious.  Super needs to be asset tested. I can't believe that as a country we are OK with spending this sort of money on the folks that have received the largest untaxed wealth gains in history. 

The sooner we start spending at least $5 billion a year on families (the future) -across the board- the better society will be. But this will be a very long term process that will take years to bear fruit.  

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Strongly suggest that you talk some calming medication. I have paid my taxes all my life. suggest you do the same

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I agree with some of your points, but why pay out more by the taxpayer when taxing capital gain or land tax would reduce the cost of housing, and provide the youth with less fixed costs, thus removing a barrier to having children? Affordable rent by means of % of total take home pay, and affordable housing (ability to service mortgage) is more important in my view at least. WFF isn't perfect, as it is intended to allow a minimum standard of living for families on lower incomes, and if they fixed the abatement issue then it would free up the sole earner (assuming this is the parenting case) to progress their career and earn more without penalty, allowing them to reach greater heights sooner rather than being penalised for doing so unless they get a significant increase in income enough to offset WFF entirely. This situation adds more stress and time away from family than ideal.

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... yes ... they utterly fail to sell the story  ... if I was in Chris Napkins shoes I'd propose a massive tax on sugar / and offset the funds collected against free dental care for all Kiwis .... 

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Its not surprising many of here don't like the idea of having to pay their fair share of tax. 

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Is >50% not enough for you? A bet you’re not even a net tax payer. Probably a bene that thinks they pay tax because an amount in nominally removed from their benefit. Please tell, how much is enough….is it 60, 70, 80%. Is it more or is it just how feel that day.

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At the average income 53k its 17.5% plus 15% GST. Fiji maths?

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The question was what a fair share. I pay over 50%. Is it fair or am I still not paying enough?

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Get an accountant.

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If you're paying over 50% in tax, that's suggests you really shouldn't be commenting on tax as you clearly haven't got a clue.

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On my income of course. Other returns are tax free and not counted. So my overall tax rate if you include items that are not taxed, is 10%-12%.

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OK then, yes I agree you are not paying enough tax.

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You just grenaded your whole whinge. Thanks for the Sunday am chuckle !!

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Yeah, nah. I can do whatever calculations I like. I can add my gains from shares or whatever long term investments I have and add that to my salary and average down the preferable I pay based on the total  that’s up to me, and it makes me feel less ripped off that I pay the amount I do. You (and Dripkins) don’t have the right to start reclassifying things as taxable income when they are not, and then drain that money away. That is the point here….and if that came to pass, it would be avoided easily…that’s the other point.

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Minus the Working For Families tax credit and the Accommodation Supplement.  And any other income related tax benefit or concession you get.  That's why half of NZ households dont pay any net tax. 

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Conveniently missed the largest welfare expense, superannuation.

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Add in council rebates for rates for retirees, winter energy supplement on top, and some even get accommodation supp as well on top of this. 

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Very average.

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Well average Joe, being average means you have like $1000 in the bank so clearly if you have more than that you should be taxed more. I know, things are really going down the toilet out there, I mean why even bother to getting out of bed ? Just get on some government handout and whinge on here all day.

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Yeah it’s so ironic. People that cannot manage money trying to lecture others on….how to manage money. They really need to get that genius out there and teach us all. It’s almost as hairbrained as giving money to crims who can then teach other crims how not to be crims. Wait….Labour did that too. That turned out well.

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You're taking a government handout by way of the Council rates rebate which apparently you qualify for with ease. Yet supposedly you were so successful you retired in your late 40s, you're obviously not willing to contribute your fair share. 

by Zwifter | 23rd Aug 24, 10:50am

You don't need anywhere near that mate, pretty much nobody ends up with an individual net wealth of $5M in this country. You would be shocked on what I live on and I'm not even retirement age, its so low I get the full Council rates rebate with ease. You need a mortgage free house and a decent car with no outstanding debt when you retire. If you had $1M in the bank you would be living the dream and then with super on top, I would then be pulling in more each year than I ever did working and it would be that cruise every year in the Pacific.

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Zwifter and averagejoe should start a satire club.

"Young people are lazy and just expect handouts. Anyway, I receive and expect a handout because (? reasons unknown). Man I hope these lazy young people will pay me a million dollars for my home. Fingers crossed!"

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Sure I retired early, you can too if you can survive on $24K a year like me. Its only possible if you are living debt free.

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It's possible because you're living off other people eg. you don't pay your full share of your rates. You've also commented about not having insurance but you will ofcourse expect to get help from emergency services along with free healthcare but again, you're living off other people who are paying insurance and paying tax towards healthcare. 

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3rd party insurance on cars, would get pretty expensive full cover on both. Can only drive one at a time so some sort of policy that will only insure me would probably be the go, never looked into it properly. Not sure how that is "Living off other people", if you insure yourself up the wazoo you will never get ahead.

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In an abstract sense, anyone who retires early when they are still physically able is living off other people.

Realistically if everyone lived the way you do the wheels would come off the proverbial bus pretty quickly. I'm sure that you worked hard to get to where you are now, but "worked" is worth a hell of a lot less than "working" when it comes to society and the economy not falling apart.

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Surely you refer to the >50% of households who pay no net income tax after transfers and credits 

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There is that appalling situation where 50% of everything contribute nothing, but then there are those of us on the top tax rate, paying gst on everything, paying rates and petrol taxes, acc and god knows what else and yet there are parasites out there that say it’s not enough and we find a way to tax these productive people more. All that will happen in a hypothetical world where this sort of idiotic plan became a reality would mean society would lose the useful and productive (they would leave) and society inNZ would collapse under the weight of the useless.

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I've been waiting for them to leave for ages. But damnit all these supposed useful and productive people, they just don't seem to want to leave. Just a lot of hot air, much like their being " productive and useful".

Bring on the useless collapse.

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Most of those people are working hard and and managing their budgets to the best of their abilities. Yes, there will always be those that don’t want to work, but most are living in poverty or close to it. You or I would not want their lives.

Those fortunate enough to own property and other assets can afford to pay capital gains tax. And yes I would be affected by it. 

I think to make it more palatable it should not be at marginal tax rate, but maybe something like 15%. Then it could be increased later if National doesn’t scrap it first

 

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They don't contribute nothing; in fact, almost everyone contributes something. Many of those you call parasites are likely just as important to the running of the country as anyone else. Sure there will be some people taking the piss but it isn't even remotely close to 50%. If you take the time to read the document you're indirectly referring to, it provides much more detail and context.

One often overlooked part is that the figure includes "in-kind benefits" like healthcare, education, and housing assistance when calculating who is paying net tax. Naturally, some people will need more than others. For example, someone with children will receive more in education funding than someone without. Retired people who are no longer able to work are going to require more assitance than a 40 year old in their prime working years. None of that is a given but it's how our society has been structured for the past 100 years, and most would prefer to not return to some kind of neo-feudalist system.

And who are you calling parasites? Is it those who receive superannuation, who get more in benefits than they pay in taxes and use more healthcare? Or is it those with children who receive more in education funding? We'd likely lose more productive people if we made it so everyone had to be a net taxpayer, as it would make for a terrible place to live.

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Again, this is an incredibly misleading stat. Who do you think it is that is collecting these transfers? You seem to think that we have this massive cohort of bludgers sitting around mooching off the government when they could be working who are dragging us all down. But that's just not reality since the  majority of those getting "transfers" are those on superannuation. There are 842,000+ over 65's, it's literally 50% of the welfare budget. The accomodation supplement is another one that is hardly a benefit as it ends up being a handout to landlords rather than actually benefitting any tenants, and in fact likely just increases rental costs for all renters.

Here is a link to the actual document.

Here is a link to the new one that was released very recently.

 

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Also 60% of families below the poverty line in this country derive their income from full time work. 

Something's not adding up there.

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"You seem to think that we have this massive cohort of bludgers sitting around mooching off the government when they could be working who are dragging us all down. "

I'd challenge you to find any comment from me that states that.

However there's plenty of comments about eg  "... this massive cohort of bludgers sitting around not mooching off the government when they could be paying additional CGT & Wealth taxes who are dragging us all down."

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Maybe I've misinterpreted your comment, but that's the general subtext I'm getting. If I'm wrong, please correct me and clarify who you are referring to when you mention that 60% of households aren't paying net tax. What's the reason for bringing up that particular statistic? Do you just think it's an interesting fact, or is there a deeper point you're trying to make?

Like genuinely, who exactly are you referring to when you claim that 60% of New Zealand households aren't net taxpayers? Why do you bring up that particular statistic so often without any additional context? Having such a small cohort of households being net taxpayers is an issue, but it could also be a strong argument for diversifying the tax base rather than being so reliant on income taxes.

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It is a factually incorrect stat. In 2023 it was closer to 60% of households paying no net tax.

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That doesn't change the fact that, without additional context, it's an effectively useless statistic that doesn't really say much on its own.

 

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About time some one said " The accomodation supplement is another one that is hardly a benefit as it ends up being a handout to landlords rather than actually benefitting any tenants, and in fact likely just increases rental costs for all renters." - amazing how the "expert" property commentators and economists never examine why rents are so high in the context of government funding of rentals - take a look at rent returns and areas such as Fordlands and Porirua deliver consistently the highest returns to landlords - and it ain't coming out of the pockets of the tenants. 

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100% agree.

Those that don't believe the tax system needs fixing are those that are quietly benefiting from the inequity coded into it.

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Absolutely. For most of those against a CGT I assume they’re relying on capital gain's in property to build wealth. That makes them speculators, not investors.

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We want to pay less tax yet have more infrastructure, better medical care and a better pension.

Why not have a tax system based on how long you have been paying into the NZ tax system. The more generations the less tax. Tax immigrants for all the infrastructure they seem to think they should have access to free of charge.

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The more generations the less tax

Wow.

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'Why not have a tax system based on how long you have been paying into the NZ tax system. The more generations the less tax. Tax immigrants for all the infrastructure they seem to think they should have access to free of charge.'
That's a disgraceful and appalling suggestion: 'Tax them, not me!'

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  • "New Zealand Tax revenue: % of GDP was reported at 30.8 % in Dec 2023."

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/new-zealand/tax-revenue--of-gdp#:….

Our tax rate is low compared to other OECD countries (those that consider themselves first world and provide the services deemed required).

The fact is if tax (as a % of GDP) is needed to increase to provide those requirements then it will fall upon those with the ability to pay....you cant get blood out of a stone.

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You failed to mention that on average the rates burden in OECD countries is about 1.0 percent of GDP. In New Zealand, it's nearly double - 1.9 percent of everything the country produces.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/ird-looks-at-how-much-tax-we-pay…

(Paywalled)

What we actually receive for our rates is a comment for another time.

 

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I think you will find that TA rates are included in that data...tax as collected by ALL levels of government

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can now see a least a two term national government, time will come for this but not until all us boomers have gone on our way.

the choice will be national led coalition and more user pays for everything so you pay more as you use things, roads, healthcare, education

or a labour led coalition where your capital as well as your earnings are taxed and the money is used collectively to pay for the same thing

the big problem is both sides waste our money and we just go from ying to yang pandering to their supporter base rather than what is good for NZ long term

 

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Another excellent comment

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Pretty much, but there is one advantage to the prospect of government supplied services...governments are far less likely to bankrupt and have those services disappear....but you are correct, one way or another we will pay more, and probably for less.

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Labour would have bankrupted NZ if they stayed in office. 

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We will never know

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We are still on the same track if you have noticed already...

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I assume you haven’t been paying attention. Here let me catch you up:

National are spending more than labour did their entire term aside from the one budget where the entire world shut down.

National will continue to spend more next budget despite saying it’s time for austerity. 

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National are spending on projects that will give us a return, not dumbass, spendthrift nonsense like Pike River, Light Rail, the moronic gun buyback, billions on maoris, the Harbour Bridge non-cycleway, 3 Waters....OMG!!!...and there's actually more than that.

Unbelievable. 

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Yes spending on infrastructure and essential services is something we all need the government to do, we simply cannot rely on the private sector for this as it's proven all the private sector is interested in is unearned income and tax free gains.

But you've unknowingly highlighted a very important point - none of that is possible without appropriate tax, and until National are willing to behave like the adults they claim to be and implement an effective tax regime which disincentivises unproductive and unearned income and gains, they look even sillier than the last. What they are opening the door for is an absolute need for capital gains tax, which Hipkins is gladly obliging to, in order to win votes off the idiocracy who truly believe tax is the devil.

The irony of your comments is that you believe this government spending is good so long as somebody else foots the bill, while you gleefully promote your landbanking endeavours for which you have provided nothing useful to the economy other than holding the bag for a temporary amount of time.

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Wingman, National have spent more on businesses cases for RONS that will not get built in their first year than Labour spent on the cycleway bridge. And the cycleway bridge was a stitch up. If they had combined it with a public transport bridge it would have been a bargain but it would have also proven that another road crossing was not required so they decided to put the PT connection in a tunnel so that the business case for the road tunnel stacked up. 

You seem to go on about doing research well I suggest you maybe do some research on transport before you spout your ideological Labour bad National good nonsense. 

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All true.

But we also have the added insult that they are borrowing more to give tax cuts to wealthy people (e.g. LL and upper income earners) that simply don't need it.

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What tax cuts are wealthy people getting? What's the definition of 'wealthy'?

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The landlord tax cut cost 3 billion didn't it? Are you paying attention?

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Only the MSM & financially illiterate call it a " landlord tax cut " ... it is infact the reintroduction of a legitimate business expense ... as any accountant would attest  ...

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If I approached the bank with a legitimate business earning $30k pa, and I asked for $900k loan, I would be laughed into oblivion.

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This is flat out untrue. Banks frequently lend millions to businesses with very low income. Property development companies setup for specific projects often have virtually no income at the point when they are trying to get bank loans. 

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Developers who sell a product and will need staged finance based off signed sales of their product? Developers income is derived from turning 0 houses into 1 house and selling that for hundreds of thousands of dollars in income.

Got any non property examples?

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There are no non property examples. The best business plan and financials will get you nothing from a bank. I had a friend who invested in my business because I couldn't get a dime from a bank, I couldn't even get a credit card under the business name. That was 12 years ago, I bought him out last year for 9x what he put in.

The only way to fund a business is through private equity, which can be hard to find when most people keep pouring money into housing.

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ASB’s share trading platform offers leverage (loans) for trading shares that have nothing to do with the expected dividends of the companies you are buying.

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9.35% per annum....

Anything else? Remember we're looking for business examples which get residential interest rates and negative gearing based on personal income.

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You can thank the Basel III regulations for that, only residential property gets the best risk weighting, so no other loans will be as cheap.

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Tax policy is defined by the government … as any accountant would attest …

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Yes a legitimate business expense, for the business of owning a property for capital gain. Therefore , they will be happy to pay tax on the capital gain, won't  they?

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It wasn't a 'tax cut' for landlords. 

Landlords renting houses got shafted by labour, National gave some of it back. 

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A wealth tax would be great!  California and New York have them, and as a result many of those who paid huge income taxes have left for other jurisdictions, leading in a shortfall in revenue for those states to support welfare programmes. And people are still leaving.

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Come on now, don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story. I know what you mean. I go to both of those places for work, pretty crappy and going down hill fast.

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Agreed. 

elmoboy12, loves a good fact-free rant.

California has massive water and fire issues going forward. The writing is writ large on that wall.
NY is simply just too expensive to live in when people can work from home in far nicer environments.

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Dripkins can postulate all he likes.

The Labour Govt. spent billions on the most outrageous, worthless projects this country's ever seen.

"A wealth tax would likely raise significantly more, but could come with unintended consequences."

I can 100% guarantee it.

 

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Yep, NZ's wealth would disappear overseas. Just make the caribean and Ireland more wealthy. A country with no wealth is what you call 3rd world.

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Might change careers and get into house moving, loading all of our houses onto boats to take with us seems like a lot of effort but it must be done. Young people don’t deserve a home to live in! Sorry, I mean my “wealth”.

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Correct - which is why you tax land that cannot disappear overseas.

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A land tax : cracking idea ... easy & cheap to implement  , hard to evade ... raises huge sums of money regularly  ....

.... hmmmm ... makes you wonder why Chris Napkins & his Lack of Brains Labour cronies haven't cautioned onto it ... 

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The boomers ( a generation I belong to) will all vote to keep Labour out of power. They had the best years and the most luck but will do everything to not help those who came after them. They love to talk about hard they worked. In reality they worked no harder than any generation which came along after them. Working for the government, a local council or  a port for example was a cushy number and virtually guaranteed a comfortable retirement. Not a lot of sweat involved in one’s work. 

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But 99% of boomers didn't work for the govt., a local council or port....did they? 

They worked for themselves, they worked for local employers, they worked overseas, they started businesses, and paid up to 66c in the dollar tax. 

No one got rich working for the govt., unless they're at the very top. 

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"But 99% of boomers didn't work for the govt., a local council or port....did they? 

They worked for themselves, they worked for local employers, they worked overseas, they started businesses, and paid up to 66c in the dollar tax. "

wow. Another fact-free rant.  

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I see you have already ticked yourself as always. Most worked for somebody or some organisation. One income was enough. Mum kept the home going. You cannot do that today unless one partner has a vey good income. 

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I have not ticked myself at all, that is an outrageous lie....apologise!!!

I've never ticked myself. 

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... my bad  , it was me ...was feeling ticked off at all the Labour luvving wokery around here ...

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You definitely ticked yourself

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"No one got rich working for the govt., unless they're at the very top."

You sure about that? 

A recently retired relative (an accountant) accumulated 15 rentals (recently all sold) while working in a mid-level job for a government department.

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Maybe he made smart decisions, bought at the right price, saved his money and lived a frugal life, who knows.

Maybe he had a very smart wife....like mine.

Maybe he inherited some money, maybe he won lotto, who knows where people get their money from?

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Sounds like an exception, not the rule. An extreme exception 

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And probably paid no tax on the capital gains. One reason why we are a poor country and Wingman’s children have to live in Australia to get ahead. 

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My children live in Australia become they're independent thinking, entrepreneurial, individuals. 

And doing very well indeed. 

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I have often said to others that some of the happiest people I dealt with when I was working were the retired couples who were both receiving National Super and one of them had a government pension. They were very comfortable in their retirement. Not rich which is a word you are totally fixated on. Being rich does not always make you happy. They had options many retirees today do not have. 

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WTF .. the Public service pays way more than the private for way less productivity.

That's a 100% reversal of 25 years ago 

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Being a boomer I agree. We had it very easy. Free education, work for anyone who wanted it , cheap housing and rent, cheap food and the ability to travel the world before the masses were unleashed. On the downside we didn't have the consumer goods and the cars were crap but things were a lot less competitive.

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Just do one labour nobody believes a word you say anymore. Jacinda spunked money on tax working groups then ignored their advice with a majority never seen under mmp. Then chippy rules out a wealth tax. Now he essentially wants one again. You couldn't make this shit up.

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I'm surprised the failed minister of health and education is still leader

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Only way this is workable:

- Make the first $25k tax free

- 30% stamp duty for any house sale over $1.5m which goes to a NZ superannuation fund 

 

 

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What a good idea. Lots of houses selling at 1.49 tho.

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30%?! 

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Promises, promises, promises. You saw what happened with KiwiBuild and CGT. When a policy becomes even slightly controversial Labour backtrack. This is not a party of change.

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"Labour promises..." who can spot the bs in that?

They lost 50% of their voter base in the last election. They ain't coming back for a while.

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I wonder how wealth to be taxed would be calculated, as it runs the risk of opening up all sorts of issues, like:

the potential to drive some of the most enterprising overseas if the value of private entities created from start ups is regarded as the founder's personal wealth.

And what about the charitable trust status of asset rich organisations like the Churches and Iwi? How will that kind of collective wealth be taxed?

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So-called 'charities' are a rort that needs to be ended.

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As a tail end boomer who has worked for myself all my life and done well (God if I knew what I would have to go through at the start may have not done it!!) I don't mind paying my tax, and still pay and pay.

There are multiple issues as I see it.

1. Only a smaller group make really good incomes. Nothing devious or anything there is limited ways to make a lot of money in NZ.

2. As a result we don't have many actually paying a lot of tax - I'm not blaming those that don't it's hard to have the means here to earn larger amounts.

3. We have tried for decades to increase incomes but it's hard as many of our industries are primary based and unless you are the owner or smart enough to provide key services the rest is lower paid.

We will have to have some sort of capital tax soon. This will be painful for many but it will pass. Getting the balance right is going to be the trick so people don't up and leave.

The key is if you want me to pay even more tax, I need to know how this is going to be used to benefit NZ Inc and no more silly stuff. Tell me it's fenced into health, education and infrastructure with a vision of true health care for all, great education (truely free) and a infrastructure plan that has a rolling 10 to 15 year vision, work etc that no stupid politician or local "I want a nice road to my bach" group hijacks.

We will see I suppose.

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Well put Jack. My sentiments entirely. I want my grandchildren to get a great education for a start.

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Agree we do need capital gains tax as the real money made in this country was through tax free capital gain.

Friends of my parents owned a very poor farm in Wiri South Auckland which was rezoned industrial and sold for a big capital gain. They bought a large farm in Flat Bush which was again rezoned residential. The children now have a massive subdivision. No tax paid.

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If it's so easy, why don't you do it then...and get rich?

You'll only have to borrow a million or two.

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Its not a matter of easy just pure luck. Maybe I am already rich.....poor rich.

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If anything gets me very grumpy it's being told it's luck. BS .. you make your luck. If it's luck go and buy lotto tickets. I have many friends who started with nothing, no family money, land etc. who are very successful, and pay a lot of tax.

Sorry to tell you it's 1% inspiration 99% perspiration and you will fail many times as well along the way - it's how you drag yourself back up and get going that counts. Also don't blame anyone or anything. Lifes not fair - never has been never will be.

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It's luck. 

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Not if one chose their parents wisely. ;-)

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You should read the comment. Owning some land that gets rezoned is luck or windfall and the capital gain should be taxed.

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We need to broaden the tax base, especially with the retired population constantly growing, collecting superannuation, and consuming more health resources, which have become significantly more expensive and labour intensive in recent years.

And this isn't an argument for more tax, or how that tax is spent, but we need to be shifting taxation away from incomes and finding revenue from other sources. Given our demographic challenges, we are likely going to end up having to spend more just to maintain our current standards.

We also need to recognize that "working" holds much more value than "worked." Yet, our taxation system gives capital, a stand-in for past effort, a free pass, while those who are actively working face much greater challenges. The incentives are backwards, and this is contributing to worsening outcomes.

At present, our primary form of taxation is on incomes, while capital remains largely untouched. This isn't just a matter of fairness; the working population simply won't be able to sustain the increasing burden of superannuation and health costs. Those benefiting from these services are contributing little to nothing towards them, yet they are far and away the wealthiest cohort.
Yes, they worked hard and paid taxes throughout their lives, but taxes aren't a savings account; that capital funded services they used during their working years. Plus they have benefited immensely by under-investing in vital infrastructure which is now another additional cost that has been pushed onto younger and upcoming generations.

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Good comment.

I'm fortunate enough to be a properly high income earner (for now - depends how my business keeps performing lol) and admittedly I wince a bit every time I get the "provisional tax payment due" email from the accountant. I'm relatively young so haven't had much time to acquire assets, but presumably I'll be in a good position to do so if I keep earning as I am.

But I also appreciate taxation is required to fund public services and provide some balance to society. I wouldn't be who I am now without having benefitted from a good public education, healthcare etc. I'm kept safe (perhaps to a lesser extent these days) by police funded from the tax I pay, and so on. So I wince with my avaricious hat on, but with my societally-minded hat on I know it has to happen.

Funnily enough I was raised in a house where my father had - and retains to this day - a simple attitude that all taxation is theft. I just smile and nod when he gets ranting at the dinner table.

Despite all this, I accept and even believe that we need to tax capital. HOWEVER, for me there are two key considerations:

Firstly, we really need to lower tax on more modest incomes. Have a decent tax free threshold, and a lower tax rate from there. Use capital taxation as a means of rebalancing the tax system so that lower income earners (as you say we have limited opportunities for good incomes in NZ) have a fairer shake.

Secondly, I agree 100% that you'd need to clearly and quickly demonstrate to those whose capital is being taxed that there is a pathway to them and all of society benefitting from this taxation. Starting with clear plans for fixing healthcare, education, infrastructure etc then actual tangible progress. Not just endless lies of "vote for us next term and you'll finally see the extra tax put to good use" and pointless working groups, or pet projects of special interest groups. 

 

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I wondered if they have modelled how many taxpayers and companies would remain in NZ once the tax advantage of no CGT that NZ currently confers is removed?  I would be gone - off to Australia to utilise the self managed super fund scheme to reduce my income tax to 15% and CGT to 10%, and for everything to be tax free once I hit 60 years of age.  What does NZ offer?

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Well at least we'll have the new holiday proposed by the coalition. My sources close to cabinet say the new proposal, to be called capital day, will allow employers to deduct employees for any amount they deem reasonable once per year. I've already earmarked my take for some new golf sticks, although I will be investing some back into the service industry through a couple of young ladies I met online.

 

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Haha… chippie shows no end to the depth of flip flopping he’ll do to get in power

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"Philosophically, I think regular bracket adjustment … is a sensible idea. As long as you’ve got alternative revenue sources to make sure the Government can fill the hole it creates,” he said. "

Smoke and mirrors, a hole is only created if government spending increases faster than inflation...

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If he really wanted to tax capital he should have campaigned on it. 

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... trying to remember what they did actually campaign on  ... after his bonfire of their vanities projects , there was only ashes left ...

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'If he really wanted to tax capital he should have campaigned on it.'
Which is why he's talking now, for the next election.

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If you're going to tax capital that means inheritances and that means the family house sale that your voter base has been hanging out for heading into reitement. Good luck!

Cullen tried CGT 6 or so years ago at the top tax bracket and Jacinda had to issue a "not on my watch" call. It was one of the first of a million or so working groups. 

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Very few countries have a wealth tax, if NZ unilaterally introduces a wealth tax the key issue is how much money will leave NZ and how much will not come into NZ. 

Heres the treasury report on wealth tax from last year, Page 21 - para 62-67 provides some comments on this - the thing is, it is very hard to know how much money would leave or how much would not come into the country. 

At a time when NZ needs as much investment as possible it does seem counter productive.

Tax Policy Report T2023/316, IR2023/067: Advice on a wealth tax - 14 March 2023 - Budget 2023 Tax Initiatives Information Release - The Treasury

Also, tax as a portion of GDP is 34% in NZ, which is in the middle of the OECD group of country (two countries to the right of the average) - so NZ is not completely out of step with other countries.

Tax revenue | OECD

Also, NZ super costs approx $20 Billion per year 

Core Crown spending on superannuation and welfare benefits in New Zealand - Figure.NZ

If the cost of supporting the elderly is the key issue, the obvious thing to be consider would seem to be to means test super. If NZ super was means tested is the same way as Australia, it would save approx $5 - $10 Billion - which would cover the bulk of the revenue gap.

 

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I think it's clear that we need some kind of capital tax to diversify government revenue away from incomes, but of all the proposed options I think a wealth tax is the worst option. It's frustrating that this is the option being rolled out by Labour/Greens/etc when there are much better options like a land value tax or even a capital gains tax which are far more common around the world and much easier to implement.

If the cost of supporting the elderly is the key issue, the obvious thing to be consider would seem to be to means test super. If NZ super was means tested is the same way as Australia, it would save approx $5 - $10 Billion - which would cover the bulk of the revenue gap.

Our superannuation scheme really feels like a slow-motion car crash, it's clear the setup isn't sustainable at all and is becoming an increasingly costly service every year but neither the electorate nor our politicians seem compelled at all to do anything proactive about it. It seems like it will just break when it breaks which is going to be worse than if we made some pragmatic decisions that could spare us the worst of it.

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Last I checked, the NZ models assumed around 40% of superannuitants would be excluded from receiving a pension which is what it is in Australia.  However, NZers are much poorer than Australians, and they dont have large super funds that they have been contributing 9-12% of their income to for 30 years to self fund themselves.  The tiny number of wealthy New Zealander pensioners would certainly not add up to $5-$10 billion in savings.  

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So still a slow-motion car crash then? Australia's system is vastly superior. It's clear superannuation is needed, I don't think anyone wants the elderly starving to death but the way it's structured isn't sustainable at all.

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Aussie business pays that 9% super on top of earnings. It doesn't get pulled from wages/salary.

Also the fact that any 30 something year old can drain that account to enter bank slavery or home ownership in this country, is a massive issue.

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That is not actually correct.  In Australia, you can either earn salary + super or you can earn a super inclusive salary package.  In the case of the former, if the super contribution is increased from 9% to 12% then your employer pays the extra contribution.  With the latter, you would receive less salary, and more super, so you pay the difference out of your wages/salary. 

You also ignore the fact that many people use the salary package option to elect to salary sacrifice additional super contributions over and above the Govt minimum - this is a common financial plan for people approaching retirement as they bulk up their super fund in order to ensure as much as possible is in there for when it becomes tax free at 60.  Another thing you can do is once you are over 50 you can sell your family house and transfer all the sale proceeds to the super fund, and it doesnt count towards your yearly contribution cap.  

Totally agree that being able to remove funds from Kiwisaver completely defeats the point of it.  A 20 year old that contributes to Kiwisaver for 10 years and then stops completely for the rest of their life will still have more money in it after 40 years than the 30 year old who drains their fund and then continues contributing for the next 40 years.  Such is the power of the time spent compounding.

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KW...thanks 🙏. I'm considering topping up my super with voluntary contributions. I have access to an accounts intermediate called Remserv, they deduct pre-PAYE, then it's taxed at 15% in my super account contributions up to a maximum. 

One point I will make is stealth fees are so much higher here than Simplicity NZ. With great sums of money comes great skull-duggery 😂 

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Fair call, my experience working for aussies many years ago was 7% on top. Was a sweet deal.

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Capital gains tax is significantly different from wealth taxes, but they get lumped together. Nz should have had a CGT years ago. So many people have benefited from tax free capital gains creating a wide wealth divide.  

IMO labour is lazy bringing up such taxes again, when they could be looking at other taxes like taxing people that land bank. We need to move people away from property as their form of investment into something productive that earns the country money. 

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Agreed but that requires the lazy land speculator to be creative, employ and train other kiwis, and contribute to society. Not holding my breath on that one.

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Alfred E Neuman speaks. Crime doesn’t pay as much as politics. Hipkins ineptitude know no limits, all one can do is laugh out loud at him.

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Bit like your ineptitude with our language.

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“Our” language? And who would “our” be kwbrn? Of course, you would never have made a typing error, would you? Anyway, comment stands. 

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Tax is like the cost of services provided by a firm purchased by consumers. Taxpayers are consumers and the firm is the administrative government. Superficially the government can compulsorily tariff its customers because it is sovereign, but unless that extends to physically preventing taxpayers from relocating to other countries (like North Korea does) then it remains dependent on its consumers to choose to keep living here and paying. As taxes (prices) rise then taxpayers (customers) can and will choose other options. This effect has always happened and always will happen.

Comments above about eg California show this; the only difference there is the ease of movement within the United States rather than internationally from New Zealand. But the effect remains the same and it is just a question of balancing the inconveniences. We are already seeing young New Zealanders, who experience less inconvenience by moving than those with families, doing just that.

Unless government spending is brought under control I see no reason for this effect to reverse - unless of course the option to move becomes less attractive because, eg, the alternative (hitherto predominantly Australia) become less attractive. But there are now many alternatives; the Middle East, and low tax American states are all viable destinations for skilled workers including those with dependent families.

What I find curious is that New Zealand taxpayers continually vote for one of two similar high tax and big-government parties (national/labor) while the low tax political parties remain in the minority (eg Act). We'd rather move country than vote differently.

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Many countries offer what is known as the "Golden Visa" whereby they allow wealthy people to obtain residency and citizenship.  I hear the Italian one is pretty popular right now (as people exit the UK due to the upcoming CGT tax hike and the non-dom change).  

https://getgoldenvisa.com/italy-golden-visa

The wealthier you are, the easier it is to move countries, and the more options of countries you have to move to.  Labour is so naive to think that wealthy people are going to be somehow trapped in NZ forever, handing over their wealth to the Govt every year.  People say you can't take land with you, but you can sell the land and take the money with you.  

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Can I ask a serious question: how does someone with the outstandingly impressive record of failure across multiple agencies (from economic to health to race relations and even biology 101), who has been shown to lie (vis a vie "everyone had a choice to Vax" and some naughty hookers are to blame for another lockdown in Nthland), how does he get a junket to WHO? Are we - the taxpayer (aka cows udders for milking), do we pay for this?

If C Napkins is honestly invited to this table, what does that say about the quality of "leadership" being called upon?

In what clown world do the multiple architects of such legacy gets global stage to shine?

I'm going to watch Shaun the Sheep with my 6 year daughter. Now Shaun, that's a farmer I can trust. He should be on the WEF panel. Not Napkins.

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Another article here indicated that more tax money is needed for retirees in future.

But then you hear labour (& greens) plan on taxing mums & dads for their rental higher than other wages, that is bizarre.

Those mums & dads work their weekends on house repairs when others have pleasure time. They do this to finally have pleasure time when they retire but obviously labour (& greens) want to take the hard earned retirement funds from them.

So, how about incentising hard work $ saving for retirement rather than punishing it?

Then I'm sure more Kiwis would be able to stand on their own feet.and would not need tax funding for their retirement!

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You miss the point of these policies.  Its not about funding more Govt services, its about identity politics.  The creation of several "victim" groups, who have now been indoctrinated to believe that other people owe them stuff, so they vote for the party that promises to take stuff from one group and hand it to the other.  The more victims you can create, by perpetuating things like race and wealth based division, the more voters you will have.  Everyone will believe that they are the "victims" and that the "others" deserve to be punished for their "oppression" (from their race/wealth/income/assets/house ownership "privilege").

So no, incentivising hard work and saving for retirement would create more National/ACT voters - and that is not good for Labour/Greens.

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That's bollocks mate. Capital gain on an house is not earned at all, let alone hard earned. 

What you are doing with your pleasure time on the weekend is maintaining an asset so it produces an income via rent. You aren't increasing the capital value by fixing a hole in a gib wall.

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These comments are hilarious and really show the dark side of New Zealand's way of thinking. Everybody is so fixated on investing in non-productive assests for tax free capital gains. 

I see nothing wrong with a capital gains tax. If you are paying capital gains tax you have made money on your asset.... What is wrong with that?  

Let's not forget the fact that a proper CGT is only payable when the gains on that asset are realised. 

Look around at the state of New Zealand... Do you think if we continue on this path that the future is bright? I for one don't. 

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"that a proper CGT is only payable when the gains on that asset are realised. " Quite right but we have half cocked CGT on many shares. Pay on unrealised gains.

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It's sad, it really is. I get the angst that it's just more tax, but really? 

 

Boomers have made insane wealth on property which doesn't come without the work of others at some point to realize that wealth. We have record amounts of young people leaving, social anxiety and mental illness rising and this entire comment section is about "better not tax me, I worked hard for my property wealth".

 

I honestly wish luck to those wanting the gravy train to continue because NZ society is going to erode further and the tax burden to keep it under control will continue to rise if we don't fix some of the basic issues. 

 

The most dangerous man is a man that has nothing to lose. 

For those reading this that don't agree, why do you think almost all retail stores have a "be kind to our staff" sign up? Have people just become horrible and somehow collectively agreed to be horrible? You take away security and people become on edge, stressed and on the brink of flipping out.

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Hipkins is a looser.

Nobody cares any more what he says.

 

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Until we work on making the future more prosperous and affordable in NZ, the tax burden will only continue to rise. 

 

Think of it. Young educated kiwis leaving, bigger population falling into pension eligibility, heavier reliance on welfare as cost of living (property) rises away from more of the population, rise in mental health and crime. 

Keeping the property ponzi going and increasing is destroying this country inside out and will continue to cause taxes to increase to keep the entire system civilized. 

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a) comprehensive CGT + gift + inheritance taxes

b) lift the retirement age in line with life expectancy, but maintain at 65 on a sickness basis

c) force all central and local govt spending through cost benefit assessment to ensure it’s effective.

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More taxes are big losers in NZ elections. 

Arnold Nordmeyer's 'black budget' in 1958 introduced big tax increases and lost Labour the election....big time. 

Kiwis are much more mobile these days, more taxes mean more of us moving offshore, just like when Muldoon skewered kiwis with death taxes and extortionate income taxes. 

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Yes, it would need to be sold as lower incomes taxes for everyone, and lower net taxes for most people.

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How do you change the attitude towards paying tax first?

There's an entire industry built around tax minimisation. Simplify the tax law. It needs to be rewritten from scratch. If tax is the biggest incentive or manipulation tactic, there's already something flawed in the market, capitalism and the people.

The middle class brainwashed into bemoaning the working class and beneficiaries for stealing their wealth, and can't see they're being constantly ripped off and manipulated by the very class they're trying to be part of.

 

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Most of the taxes in NZ are paid by few people. 

50% of households in  NZ don't pay any net tax, (excluding GST).

Any attempt to lighten the pockets of the other 50% would have fairly serious consequences for NZ, people are pretty mobile these days. This is not the 1970's. 

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50% of households in  NZ don't pay any net tax, (excluding GST).

I swear to god.

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The god of mammon?

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The god of statistical literacy.

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Any attempt to lighten the pockets of the other 50% would have fairly serious consequences for NZ, people are pretty mobile these days.

The alternative is just let the money dry up and have no pension eventually when the fund runs dry and the country cannot afford it anymore. At the current trajectory it won't take too long to get there, as well as increased deaths due to delayed treatment and poor healthcare due to again, lack of adequate funding. These things might not have mattered so much to you in the 1970's, but pension and healthcare will matter to everyone soon enough when they need it.

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I hope a wealth tax doesn’t kick in til after 300,000. If you’re supporting a family on a solo income so your partner can run the family home, 180K isn’t wealth in todays world 

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$180,000 may not be wealth, but it's nearly three times the full-time median annual wage.

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The issue with tax on capital is surely whether that drives much needed capital out of NZ. We need some sort of competitive advantage to encourage capital growth in NZ which creates jobs.

What Id like to see is:

- no tax in salaries to say $10k, and the tax bans that are reasonable thereafter. This helps the lower income earner more than anyone else.

- GST to 20% which hits the bigger spender more than anyone else

- tax on “luxuries” at 30% minimum which would include cars, appliances, electrics etc, again hitting those that spend more and change more regularly 

- toll roads on all main arterial routes with a commensurate decrease in public transport ticket costs. This gets people on to public transport and provides revenue for improved services

- compulsory Kiwisaver at a minimum of 10% from employee and employer. Remove the $1,000 per year start up grant but also remove or decrease the tax. This means more saved for the future and less load on govt pensions, not to mention more funds for investment in NZ by the fund managers.

It can not be just about grabbing more tax. It needs to have functional benefits for society so that there is fairness and a benefit to all tax payers.

Where are the downsides in this?

 

 

 

 

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GST to 20% which hits the bigger spender more than anyone else

This impacts low-income people far more as it ends up being a much larger proportion of their income compared to higher earners who have a much greater capacity to save.

20% GST shouldn't be acceptable when it's applied to essentials like groceries, yet excluding those essentials makes the administration of GST way more complicated so better to just leave that alone.

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The capital is here. It is tied up in a stupidly overpriced housing market. Many SMEs are backed by afore mentioned stupid housing market. Its an absolute house of cards. The net winners are the banks, no one else, just the banks.

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From the EU experience, wealth taxes do drive capital in to other jurisdictions and are being rolled back to things that look a lot like...Capital Gains Taxes on property.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_tax#Criticisms

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They still haven't figured it out. They only need to bring back land tax and reduce GST and income tax to put it all back into kilter.

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 Is there a entity one can establish in Australia to shift company shares and equity into while staying living in NZ?

 

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You really need to go see an accountant. That is one massively complex question to get any straight answer to without understanding a heap more.

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Both our children live in Australia. Any attempt to gouge us, and I'd transfer funds to their accounts or alternatively, move there. 

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Maybe send a memo to the govt. They'll take you seriously.

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You've got the wrong government, this one has no intention of gouging the so-called 'rich'. 

Whoever they are. 

Thousands of kiwis moved to QLD in the 1980's to avoid death taxes. There is absolutely zero point in taking risks, building businesses or employing others to make money if the government is going to confiscate it. 

The rich are fleeing Britain again, just like the Beatles, the Rolling Stones and Rod Stewart did.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13826451/Britains-richest-plum…

 

 

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Thousands may have left, but so many remained and still do to this day. what is currently driving people away is lack of opportunity and cost of living. Address these, which will take additional income streams for govt, and we may yet give the young hope and convince them to stay. As you say, people are very mobile and the youth are talking with their feet at present.

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An Australian self managed super fund.  You would need to be "resident" in Australia to set it up, but after that you can appoint a corporate trustee to manage it though.  

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Chris Hipkins says new taxes will be needed to fund healthcare and pensions for an ageing population

so basically creating more tax for NZ.  

 

 

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