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Powerdownkiwi marks his ten years commenting here with a Top 10, noting his message gets a more sympathetic hearing now, after another decade of obvious economic imbalance

Powerdownkiwi marks his ten years commenting here with a Top 10, noting his message gets a more sympathetic hearing now, after another decade of obvious economic imbalance

This Top 10 comes from regular commenter powerdownkiwi, aka Murray Grimwood.

As always, we welcome your additions in the comments below or via email to david.chaston@interest.co.nz. And if you're interested in contributing the occasional Top 5 or Top 10 yourself, contact gareth.vaughan@interest.co.nz.

See all previous Top 5s here.


Ten years ago I joined the Interest.co.nz discussion. There was much denigration of my message – there still is a little – but the conversation slowly shifted.

Then Covid hit; the skies were empty, the highways deserted.

To the backbeat of Trump, Brexit and ever-increasing debt, a pianissimo passage had caught the rock-n-rollers by surprise. The confident were confused, the decisive dithered, but most importantly, the narrative rapidly shifted.

The direction is clearly onward from the Chicago School/Neoliberal/Classic Economics chapter; just what is to be written overleaf is as yet unclear. We are in for an interesting year, with across-the-board legislation up either for writing or for re-writing.

Hopefully by the end of the process energy will command a little more respect, and fiat-issued debt a little less (Although I’ve always understood that fiat issued debt was a little less…..).

1. The myth of green energy

Here’s Charles Hugh Smith, laying out the message in clear terms.

“Again, ‘money’ is nothing but a claim on future energy, because energy is the foundation of the global economy. Without energy, we’re all stranded in the desert and all our ‘money’ is worthless because it can no longer buy what we need to live.”

“Central banks can print infinite amounts of currency but they can’t print energy”

And he finishes with: “The monumental asymmetry between the staggering rate of expansion of ‘money’ — claims on future energy — and the stagnant supply of energy means this illusion is only temporary.”

Quite.

2. After a Trumpian detour ...

Kunstler was one of my favourite wordsmiths, his high-water-mark being ‘Living in the Long Emergency’; still worth the read today. Recently his blog degenerated into minor US political witch-hunts, but post-Trump he’s showing glimmerings of genius again:

“The defense rests!” the Queen of Hearts screeched. “Mr. Pooh, you have led a life of disgusting racism, colonialism, hate-ism, white supremacy, and depravity. I am directing the jury to find you guilty as charged and sentence you to be cancelled.”

3. Did you hear the one ...

Tom Murphy did something like this on his dothemath site some years ago. Here it is done with humour; but the message is identical. This is the direction that ‘overall narrative’ is moving in:

ECONOMISTS: You really do underestimate the human capacity to adapt, don't you? And they say ours is the dismal science! Anyway, we're not totally agreed on the level of warming. It depends on the discount rate

ECOLOGISTS: Hmm--discount rates. The idea that the present is more valuable than the future. We always wondered why you took that view. Surely, we want our children to have lives at least as good as ours…don't you think the economy should also somehow reflect our values? Seems like it does the opposite…

ECONOMISTS: Sorry, values, what? You've lost us…

4. A spinoff from the old ‘The Oil Drum’ site (now archived) was Gail the Actuary.

Like Nicole Foss (once interviewed by Interest.co.nz and an old Oil Drummer too) she saw energy from a different angle:

It is clear to many people that the world economy is now struggling. There is too much debt; young people are having trouble finding jobs that pay well enough; people in poor countries are increasingly more food insecure. Leaders everywhere would like solutions. The “easy” solution to offer is that intermittent wind and solar will solve all our problems, including climate change. The closer a person looks at the situation, this solution is simply nonsense. Wind and solar work passably well at small concentrations within electric systems, if it is possible to work around their pricing problems. But they don’t scale up well. Energy researchers especially should be aware of these difficulties.

5. And the message is just getting more mainstream by the day:

in both Neoclassical and Post-Keynesian models, output (the quantity of goods or services produced in a specific time period) is a function of capital and labour. But this ignores the energy needed to feed the worker, to power the machine – in other words it ignores the very Laws of Thermodynamics.

6. De-growth urgently required

If growth is an impossibility but you only discuss that possibility in a Wile-E-Coyote moment (when you are overshot, in other words) then logic suggests de-growth is required. Urgently.

This one is academic level-wise, dense word-wise, but essential reading for anyone involved in – or teaching – governance.

7. Limits to Growth updated

The last academic appraisal of the Limits to Growth (outside of the 10-year updates) was in 2014. It essentially validated the ‘Standard Run’. We have a newer Master’s Thesis (Harvard), which finds that other ‘runs’ might fit just as well, but end the same if we continue pursuing our present trajectory. For every one Thesis into the Limits to Growth, of course, there are 10,000 back-casting growth-to-date and projecting it into the stratosphere…..

8. A Wall Street high-flyer's epiphany

Still academic, but an easy read and lighter on the cranium, is yet-another reminder of the old Oil Drum days, Nate Hagens. He “holds a Masters Degree in Finance with Honors from the University of Chicago and a PhD in Natural Resources from the University of Vermont. Previously Nate was President of Sanctuary Asset Management and a Vice President at the investment firms Salomon Brothers and Lehman Brothers.” But somewhere back there, this Wall Street high-flyer had an epiphany. And ended up peddling the same story you get hereabouts from PDK.

Here's Hagens:

A bunch of mildly clever, highly social apes broke into a cookie jar of fossil energy and have been throwing a party for the past 150 years. The conditions at the party are incompatible with the biophysical realities of the planet. The party is about over and when morning comes, radical changes to our way of living will be imposed. Some of the apes must sober up (before morning) and create a plan that the rest of the party-goers will agree to. But mildly clever, highly social apes neither easily nor voluntarily make radical changes to their ways of living. And so coffee and stimulants (credit, etc.) will be consumed during another lavish breakfast, but with the shades drawn. It’s morning already.

9. A couple for music lovers (well, life shouldn’t all be serious, should it?)

Sometimes you come across cross-genre musicians. Sometimes it’s like Linda Ronstadt, travelling from Rock to near-classical; sometimes it’s like Kiri going the other way. This one is at the edge of my comfort-zone, but has to be hat-tipped for professionalism. The song is constructed for live performance (tempo-changes, a soft stretch, a build, a crowd-pull, hooks) and is worth admiring alone, but the voice! Clearly trained, clever breathing, amazing range, every attack absolutely nailed:

10. Ending on a quiter, but high note

For those who like it a little quieter, here’s an Alan Parson Project song (from Eye in the Sky, 1982) originally sung by Colin Blunstone, later by Eric Woolfson. It’s not often an apartment-recorded cover knocks the original out of the park:

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27 Comments

A good Monday morning read. Thx.

Alan Parsons Project for the original of the last clip!
His "Turn of a friendly card" might fit in with your thoughts:

"There are unsmiling faces and bright plastic chains
And a wheel in perpetual motion
And they follow the races and pay out the gains
With no show of an outward emotion
And they think it will make their lives easier
For God knows, up till now it's been hard
But the game never ends when your whole world depends
On the turn of a friendly card"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT0cKjDACIY

And.....

The bond market isn’t expecting a boom. In fact, I’d say that right now bond yields reflect growth expectations that are no better – and maybe quite a bit worse – than what prevailed before the virus hit.

https://alhambrapartners.com/2021/04/04/weekly-market-pulse-buy-the-rum…

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What ever became of Nicole Foss?
Last I heard, she was involved in an intentional community near Motueka.

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She is still doing commentary on Youtube clips with Aaron Wissner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npuhlVpGdjk&ab_channel=LocalFuture

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Enlightening. "Please 'Sir', can I have some more ..."

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It's still staggering that most people don't undertsand/even know about the "infinite growth on a finite planet" problem.
And thanks Murray for the link (via someone else on this site) to "Energy and human ambitions on a finite planet" byPhysics Professor Tom Murphy. Cracking read. An interesting, scary and depressing (given how human psychology works) look in to what's coming soon to a planet near you. It's all just a question of when exactly the brown stuff hits the fan and the majority suddenly realise what a scam the past 50 odd years have been. A simpler life awaits...for the few left behind.

https://escholarship.org/uc/item/9js5291m (its free!)

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How on Earth can anyone know about it? All media output hypes the need for exponential growth. The ads between segments promote consumption. The only way to begin the journey of discovery, is to unplug and intellectually divorce yourself from the all pervasive mental pollution human society is increasingly bathed in.

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10 years - where does the time go! Congrats on the anniversary. Yes, indeed there has been a turn but "just what is to be written overleaf is as yet unclear" - couldn't be expressed better.

I had a conversation with a local councilor recently, who was legitimating a council-led project spend (which the community at large was against) on the basis of them (the Council) needing to plan for and accommodate the growth projections for the district. When I asked what growth projections - it was clarified, population growth as per StatsNZ projections. When I suggested that they (the elected politicians) could control population growth in the district by way of their District Plan.... there was a super-perplexed look - as if I was an absolute fool.

And maybe I am - given the direction of this government is to instruct through legislating councils to make plans for future growth. We just have to be aware, those repeating the growth-is-good narrative are not talking about future community wellbeing growth, but future population growth.

More people does not equate to greater wellbeing for all; nor does it engender social cohesion within our communities. Local elected officials are not so much failing to plan for growth, rather they are failing to accept the quantification of current capacity - and they seem reluctant to push back loudly should that capacity already be in over-shoot.

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To start on the path of thinking de-growth requires that globally we #BanGDP.

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#WhateverNext
Your raison d'etre seems to be, oppose everything

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LOL. No. Think about it - GDP is the basic metric to determine 'recession'. The world is in the silly pickle it is at the moment because everyone is trying to avoid 'recession'. Improvements in GDP cannot continue exponentially on a finite planet.

If instead the world adopted the measure of economic performance based on productivity, instead of GDP - ask yourself, would we be concerned with quite different policy options/measures? And if so, how might these be better for the planet?

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'If instead the world adopted the measure of economic performance based on productivity'

Ya reckon... that would only increase output, it would expose our very poor performance and raise a myriad of questions. NZs productivity is low

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With respect, I disagree with Kate re Productivity (and by inference, with you).

Productivity is the amount of work done, for the amount of energy committed. In Adam Smith's day it was human/animal labour, and economists haven't moved on. Now labour represents less than 1% of global work done, and even that is fed largely by fossil energy being applied to food.

And we chose the best, first. Which meas every 'next' option has to be 'worse'. Thus declining EROEI. Don't blame the people, blame our choice of measurement.

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Productivity improvement means fundamentally more from less - hence energy conservation initiatives are a productivity improvement (e.g., EECA's work) . Switching from synthetic to natural fertiliser (regenerative agriculture) is a productivity improvement. Even if one reduces inputs and outputs remain constant - it is still a productivity improvement. At least that is as I understand it.

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While increasing numbers recognise the folly of exponential growth most cannot bring themselves to accept the inevitable conclusion and so they party on....its going to get messy when the bar runs dry.

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Not up to your level of thinking but pretty much always agree, hard not to when it's so obvious.
Was just listening to this and thought of this thread. Locomotive Breath
Aqualung · 1971

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That's an all time favourite of mine - saw them in Welly last time they toured here. Birthday pressie to myself.

And another good one from the 70s - other side of the Atlantic;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dh-WOlFkHg&t=1s

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That was one of my favorites as a kid.
Just listen to The last resort, Eagles.
Fascinated to know whether I've always understood the concept of a finite planet or whether listening to this music or some other thing set me on that course.

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PDK,

Interesting and thought-provoking as always. However, in your graph, you have industrial production falling off a cliff about now, closely followed by food. Why? What will be the catalyst for this massive change? It cannot be lack of energy, as the world still has plenty of oil and gas, so what could it be? Accelerated climate change?
As Carl sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and you have provided none.

Another quote; doubt is uncomfortable, but certainty is absurd-Voltaire. Your worldview does not admit of any doubt. I think I may have sent you a link to a recent report on Scotland's energy production. If not, i would be happy to do so.I lived there for well over 50 years, so remain interested in it. In only 10 years, they have increased their electricity generation from renewables from around 37% to over 90%. A great deal of money is going into wave and tidal energy in Orkney and I have seen this at first hand. The transition from fossil fuels will certainly not be seamless or without major disruption to our present way of life, but it will happen and will run along side a decreasing global population.

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You conflate some things and ignore others.

Firstly, nobody 'produces' energy. They change it from one state to another, extracting 'work' in the change (energy cannot be destroyed, only altered). . These changes are always in the direction of Entropy - fossil fuels were much lower entropically (much more concentrated energy, in lay terms) than anything (except arguably nuclear). An example is low-entropy fuel in your tank - you turn it into heat (that's why spark-plugs or diesel compression) and extract work from the change - it turns your wheels. But that change can never be more than say 40% efficient, and the waste heat comes from your exhaust and your radiator - leaving low-grade-heat in the air behind you. That heat is not worth gathering; the gathering takes more energy that the return would be (would take more work to collect than it would let you do once you'd collected it.

Another way to look at Entropy is EROEI (Energy Return on Energy Invested). It is a killer ratio, and it's going South at an accelerating rate. As the energy underwrite has failed to keep up with the cute little graphs economists and politicians 'produce' :) the gap has been filled with injected debt, and interest-rates have trended to zero. Barring another low-entropy energy source, those trends are irreversible (despite adjectival cheerleadery). We knowit's going South; the next-best remaining options include tar-sands and fracking (they were worse than Prudhoe Bay or the North Sea, but they're effectively gone.

So we don't have 'plenty of oil and gas' - and that's before you count in exponentially-increasing demand (including from a never-bigger collection of aging infrastructure - which represent an energy requirement, of course). CC will just be like pandemics - an increasing hamstringer as society attempts first growth, then triage, then survival.

Don't conflate electricity with total energy (you don't here, but it is common) - in NZ electricity may well be 90-100% renewable, but electricity is only 40% of our total energy-use, and without the utes I can't see lines-maintenance happening so easily....

Agree with your last sentence.

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pdk,

Thank you for your lengthy reply. However, you didn't answer my question on the imminent collapse of industrial production. What will cause it? What's your definition of plenty? Right now, there are decades of oil available at current usage and more will be extracted. The UK is committed to extracting more from the North Sea and Greenland is worth watching, as is Russia in the Arctic. I don't address the moral issue or the efffect of doing so on our climate.

It may well be the case that we never again achieve the same energy efficiency as we get from oil and that has implications for our way of life. The next few decades will see us face major issues and regional wars over resources-oil/gas, water and land are entirely possible. This is the world my grandchildren will grow up in. But, from your many posts, your vision is not just one of disruption, but of a Hobbesian future-and in the near future. In one post you were predicting that the global population would fall drastically to i think around 2 bn. Really?

I am quite prepared to accept that you carry more intellectual fire-power than I do, but I say again, I am discomfited by your absolute certainty that there can be no other outcome than the one you envision. There will be E utes.

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pdk,

Thank you for your lengthy reply. However, you didn't answer my question on the imminent collapse of industrial production. What will cause it? What's your definition of plenty? Right now, there are decades of oil available at current usage and more will be extracted. The UK is committed to extracting more from the North Sea and Greenland is worth watching, as is Russia in the Arctic. I don't address the moral issue or the efffect of doing so on our climate.

It may well be the case that we never again achieve the same energy efficiency as we get from oil and that has implications for our way of life. The next few decades will see us face major issues and regional wars over resources-oil/gas, water and land are entirely possible. This is the world my grandchildren will grow up in. But, from your many posts, your vision is not just one of disruption, but of a Hobbesian future-and in the near future. In one post you were predicting that the global population would fall drastically to i think around 2 bn. Really?

I am quite prepared to accept that you carry more intellectual fire-power than I do, but I say again, I am discomfited by your absolute certainty that there can be no other outcome than the one you envision. There will be E utes.

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pdk,

Thank you for your lengthy reply. However, you didn't answer my question on the imminent collapse of industrial production. What will cause it? What's your definition of plenty? Right now, there are decades of oil available at current usage and more will be extracted. The UK is committed to extracting more from the North Sea and Greenland is worth watching, as is Russia in the Arctic. I don't address the moral issue or the efffect of doing so on our climate.

It may well be the case that we never again achieve the same energy efficiency as we get from oil and that has implications for our way of life. The next few decades will see us face major issues and regional wars over resources-oil/gas, water and land are entirely possible. This is the world my grandchildren will grow up in. But, from your many posts, your vision is not just one of disruption, but of a Hobbesian future-and in the near future. In one post you were predicting that the global population would fall drastically to i think around 2 bn. Really?

I am quite prepared to accept that you carry more intellectual fire-power than I do, but I say again, I am discomfited by your absolute certainty that there can be no other outcome than the one you envision. There will be E utes.

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pdk,

Thank you for your lengthy reply. However, you didn't answer my question on the imminent collapse of industrial production. What will cause it? What's your definition of plenty? Right now, there are decades of oil available at current usage and more will be extracted. The UK is committed to extracting more from the North Sea and Greenland is worth watching, as is Russia in the Arctic. I don't address the moral issue or the efffect of doing so on our climate.

It may well be the case that we never again achieve the same energy efficiency as we get from oil and that has implications for our way of life. The next few decades will see us face major issues and regional wars over resources-oil/gas, water and land are entirely possible. This is the world my grandchildren will grow up in. But, from your many posts, your vision is not just one of disruption, but of a Hobbesian future-and in the near future. In one post you were predicting that the global population would fall drastically to i think around 2 bn. Really?

I am quite prepared to accept that you carry more intellectual fire-power than I do, but I say again, I am discomfited by your absolute certainty that there can be no other outcome than the one you envision. There will be E utes.

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"Falling off a cliff ..... Why? What will be the catalyst for this massive change? It cannot be lack of energy, as the world still has plenty of oil and gas, so what could it be?"

The $$$ / viability (or the appearance of) can turn on a dime
Once it is apparent you wont really get paid for stuff, it will more basic bilateral trade for essentials ...
But the question is what happens to economies to scale in supply lines ...

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ham n eggs,

That's not an answer, just a series of unsupported statements. "One it's apparent you won't really be paid for stuff". Explain when and why this will happen. The first sentence makes no sense to me, which may well be my problem, but can you reword it? The last sentence is question to which you fail to provide any answer.

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ham n eggs,

That's not an answer, just a series of unsupported statements. "One it's apparent you won't really be paid for stuff". Explain when and why this will happen. The first sentence makes no sense to me, which may well be my problem, but can you reword it? The last sentence is question to which you fail to provide any answer.

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Keep banging the drum Murray - it's booming louder as it empties - hopefully people will start hearing it above the scraping noises.

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